Using the Krumphau

[Randall Pleasant]

Fellow scholars

In the past I have almost never used the Krumphau during sparring. I know that the Krumphau counters the Ochs but I still just don't have a good feel for when to throw it. To those of you who use the Krumphau with success in sparring, please enlighten me.

[GaryGrzybek]

Hey Randall,

I performed a Krump once by chance during sparring. It was with the false edge as seen in Talhoffer. As far as I can remember it happened like this: I cut at my partner with a left to right Zornhau. He voids and returns with Sheitelhau. I pass slightly to the right and cut over from left to right against his blade setting it aside for a counter.

Now, the funny part is this was my second time sparring.

Talk about luck <img src="/forum/images/icons/cool.gif" alt="" />

[Jake_Norwood]

The krumphau is a cut that I've seen interpreted too many ways to be sure that we're discussing the same cut, but if it's the one that John calls the krumphau and that Tobler calls the Zwerch in his photo-commentaries of Ringeck, then we're on the same page. It's a false edge cut that "unwinds" over the right shoulder/head...

Anyway, we use it quite a bit in sparring to great effect, but it's taken lots of constant practice to get used to it. The cut, unlike the basic 8, is rather counter-intuitive. It's a wonderful cut to throw from a rota or from a thrust to the opponent's right side (your left), or from a hengen. Practice it in floryshes and you'll see it in sparring.

[Randall Pleasant]

Jake

The Krumphau and the Zwerchhau are two different cuts. Ringeck lists both are as master cuts. Zwerchhau counters vom Tag while Krumphau counters Ochs. Like you, I use Zwerchhau quite often in sparring and find it natural to use and very effective. However, the Krumphau does not feel as natural, which means I do not use it effectively, which means I almost never use it in sparring. Basically, I don't have a feel for the timing of its use and how to recover after throwing it.

[Jake_Norwood]

Jake

The Krumphau and the Zwerchhau are two different cuts. Ringeck lists both are as master cuts. Zwerchhau counters vom Tag while Krumphau counters Ochs. Like you, I use Zwerchhau quite often in sparring and find it natural to use and very effective. However, the Krumphau does not feel as natural, which means I do not use it effectively, which means I almost never use it in sparring. Basically, I don't have a feel for the timing of its use and how to recover after throwing it.

Randal-

Heh, I know that they're different cuts. My point is that different camps interperet the cut pretty differently, and I wanted to be clear. I know what JC taught us as "the Krumphau" and I know that Tobler's book calls the same technique the "Zwerch," and that JC calls a right mittelhau a "zwerch" and so on. That's the thing...there's not really even a solid agreement on which cut goes with which name. I use JC's terminology, but this is also one of the only places where I don't think that I agree with it...I think that Tobler is right in calling the krump as JC does it the "zwerch," but also that Tobler's take on the krump is off.

Make sense?

[Mike Cartier]

We were working under the understanding that Krumphau is the diagonal or just about any other strike from the left to right
(if you are right handed)
Zornhau being that going from right to left diagonal (again if you are right handed)
Thus krumphau and zornhau are 2 sides if the same coin
Zwerchau is the backward or true edge strike that strikes to the head paralelel to the floor (much like the Filipino abanicao or fan)
This is right to left (again only if right handed)
the same strike going from left to right would be called a krumphau and so Zwerchau is only from the right to left (this would all switch over to the other side if you were left handed).
Unfortunately we have not much instruction so we are trying to grasp at sources as we can. i beleive our impression of the Krumphau came from the Tobler book.

Another question..
if there ochs is either side (left or right) how can the krumphau break the ochs, wouldn't the break be different depending on which side ochs is trying to be broken?



Please correct me if I'm wrong

[BengtAbrahamsson]

I don't get it.
Why not do what the manual's says?
For the Krumphau Von Danzig says left foot forward,step to the right with your right foot,sword on your right shoulder,hit with the long edge over his hand with crossed arms.
Jud Lew says thrust your left hand that is on the pommel under your right arm,so stepping out to the side your hands are crossed even if you cut from right to left,hence it's a Krumphau.
Then he describes the left version.He starts with saying that Krumphau can be done on both sides from the Shrankhut and gives the left version from that guard.
Right foot forward,sword in left schrankhut,when he cuts to your right opening step to his right side and hit with the short edge over his hand.
Bengt
EHCG

[Mike Cartier]

well that seems rather technique specific, but from what i understand Krumphau is the crossed hand strike, so from where of how you may strike with it, its a Krump.
So krumphau would have to be more than that specific technique using the krumphau.
As I said too, i beleive the impression we have of Krumphau comes from the Tobler book which uses manuals for its interpretation.
The key i think we are looking for is the concept of Krumphau rather than just an isolated tchnique or 2 that uses krumphau.

Here is some info on the Krumphau from the source you site
http://www.schielhau.org/chapt7.html
Interestingliy I do not see how the figure mentioned in meyer illustration is doing a krumphau of any interpretation.
Maybe I'm just being a doofus tho <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" /> thats always a possibility
Do you have any more sources for the Krumphau we could all look at?

[BengtAbrahamsson]

The way I see it the Krumphau in the "Liechtenauer" manuals is one specific cut.
Zwerch hau is done from the right side with the short edge.
If he displaces that,you could cut around to his other side with the long edge.Your hands will then be crossed but it's just the left Zwerch.

Meyer is much later.It shows a different fencing.
I have not checked it out that much.
I like the killing stuff. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />
Bengt
EHCG

[Jake_Norwood]

Exactly what I mean. We don't really have a consensus (though I really appreciate your references, Brent). I think that we have a "naming problem" in our little field, amplified by the fact that even the masters called things differently.

Is there a solution? We could standardize the names, but then we will have difficulties interpereting manuals that don't use our standardization. I could conceive of "Talhoffer's Krump" vs. "Lew's Krump," but that seems like a long-winded way of approaching it.

[Jake_Norwood]

Bengt...I meant Bengt, not Brent. Sorry.

[BengtAbrahamsson]

The Combat Guild is using standardisation.
Jonathan Waller has an article on it at the Guild Website.
Bengt
EHCG

[Guest]

I'm not quite sure where this confusion about the Krumphau is coming from. It seems to be pretty standard in the sources that I have seen. The only thing that seems to vary between descriptions in the historical manuals is whether you use the short or long edge. Basically the Krumphau or "crooked strike" involves stepping on one line and striking on another, hence the "crooked" aspect. If you are in a Nebenhut with the left foot forward and he strikes with an Oberhau from his right to left, you step out with your right foot on the 45 degree line to avoid his cut and literally "verfall" or "drop" the Krump on either his sword near the hilt or his hands (depending on your timing and range). Some sources say to use the short edge, some the long edge. I find that using the long edge keeps my hilt low and does a better job of preventing his strike from carrying through to hit my leg. The Krump can also be done on the left side by just reversing the directions. In this case, the short edge seems to work better. I haven't gotten into a lot of sparring yet, but it seems to me that the Krump would be easy to implement. Wait for the opponent to launch a committed strike, step off line and "Krump" him, then flow into a "schnitt" or cut to his face.

Keith

[Mike Cartier]

After looking over some of the sources I have to agree with keith here, its quite clear to me what Krumphau is, and its just the way Keith describes it.
I think part of the problem is using master strike names to describe the lines of attack.
We are really thinking of going to a numbering system for the cut lines so we can seperate the master cuts from the general cutline terminology.

[GaryGrzybek]

I agree completely Keith. This is how I've tried to look at it all along. In the manuals it shown both both false and true edge cuts from both sides. There is no need to isolate this technique as others have done.