Long Sword on Middle Earth

[Scott Anderson]

yeah, i think it's mostly on topic, maybe slightly off.

it can indeed be hard to watch some of them, easier if it's fairly decent, and almost impossible for others. I'm sure most of us have at one point or another had the thought that if they were involved in the fight the people in the show would'nt stand much of a chance at all.

SPA

[Jaron Bernstein]

Hi guys,

Thanks for all the responses. Much to ponder.

[JeanryChandler]

The best have been old black-and-white Kurosawa films...Yojimbo, Rashomon, the 7 Samurai...

I agree wholeheartedly, Yojimbo is one of my all time favorite movies in the world and eminently more satisfying to watch the fights of than most Fantasy sci fi movies I see where I cringe constantly... one of the actual nice things about the recent release of Kill Bill and the Last Samurai was that to promote them they did some deal with the Independent Film channel where they showed like every Kirosawa movie and a bunch of other good Samurai flicks. There was one series of movies they showed which I hadn't seen before which was called simply "Samurai" (Samurai 1, 2 and 3) which stared Toshiro Mifune who is the badass guy in all the Kirosawa Samurai / Westerns... In the last movie he takes one his super nemisis using a stick made of a carved up rowing-oar instead of a sword because he liked the reach better. Classic...

There was one western made movie from the 70s that I saw called "The last Valley" which was about the 30 years war which had some realistic aspects to it, though some painfully silly ones too.

And there was one little scene in Conan where Sandhal Bergman evades some bad guys with a pretty nifty move. I bet she would have been good at WMA...

JR

[Matt Shields]

For some reason, I don't feel that stomach tension that makes me cringe nearly as much when I see horrible unarmed combat in movies, even though many times it may be more preposterous than an edge parry. Just why, I can't put my finger on. Could it be because people in the audience know it's bad? Because unarmed combat is more diverse? Becuase it's used modernly? Or is it just because edge parries have that nail on a chalkboard effect?

By the way Jeanry, I saw Samurai I, and it seemed like a three hour tea-party to me.

[Guest]

Sorry for the de-rail and thanks for the responses.

- Todd

[Jake_Norwood]

The "Samurai" movies are based on Eiji Yoshikawa's excellent book from the early 1900s, "Musashi." It's a fictional piece about the (probably real) historical figure who wrote "A book of Five Rings." It's a must-read for any swordsman.

Jake

[Jay Vail]

Let's ban all discussions of the Last Samurai, one of the worst sword movies ever made.

[Webmaster]

I wouldn't go that far. Besides, I hear there's a King Arthur "epic" coming out next summer, which promises plenty of new depths to be plumbed.

[Stuart McDermid]

Hi Guys,

I don't want to turn the discussion to this particular topic and I am genuinely not trying to start trouble. However, I do think it is worth mentioning that the issue of edge parrying is a contentious one and that you could conceivably have world authorities on medieval fencing like Bob Charron or Christian Tobler involved in a movie project and still see the edge to edge blade actions many of you hate so much.

(I do agree with you guys that many blade actions in medieval German fencing are with the flat and deliberately so btw, just not all of them.)

In addition, most sword movies I have seen have not been set in medieval times. They are mostly set at the height of the Renaissance and beyond where the preference for the edge parries is irrefutably in print (IMHO).
Silver is arguable and Swetnam is probably the earliest plain example I can think of in English but I believe some Italian chaps made much the same assertion in the 1550s

Anyway, I am less concerned about parries in film than I am about realistic techniques done at a realistic distance and without the awful "leading" thing that stage fencers do. (Leading is where the defender moves to a ward to signal the attacker where to strike instead of acting in a reactionary fashion).
Cheers,
Stu.

[Jake_Norwood]

Hi Stu (and Stew).

I've attended Bob's seminar on the longsword, and the kind of static edge-block that we drives us ARMA guys nuts isn't in his repetoire either. I don't want this to become an edge-parry debate, but no one in the community with any respectable position is advocating any kind of static edge block past the ricasso. The ARMA "anti-edge-parry" position is soooooo misunderstood by anyone that hasn't trained with us. Thus we say "no edge blocks" and others say "yes edge blocks" and we're using 80%+ the same techniques...it's a terminology issue primarily. I don't presume you're arguing that Aragorn and Eowyn's horrific edge-to-edge meeting was anything out of a historical manual for any european weapon that cuts on a regular basis. Are you?

As for Meyer, I've been spending all of my time on this (okay, and some messer) lately. Meyer advocates receiving attacks on the flat or the ricasso every time. The Meisterhau anywhere in the German tradition due to basic mechanics line edges to flats 90-100% of the time in laboratory conditions. And that's using all of Tobler's interpretations, with more full extension of the arms, as is advocated in the manuals frequently (Plate 5 of Zabinski's Wallerstein to start).

So I think that the argument of edge-and-flat is a terminology war, not really a technique war. The stage-combat modified small-sword parry with a longsword is *not* good fighting no matter where you're from, and the masters agree.

Jake

Jake

[Stuart McDermid]

Hi Jake,

I agree that the issue is semantics although I would put your value at more like 90%. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

I worry though that people get the idea that the official ARMA position on parrying is that you avoid meeting edge to edge at all costs.

For example, it would seem at first glance that ARMA would advise against using the edge even when you are parrying with forte against foible. (Until I took part in some lengthy debates with you guys, it certainly seemed this was the case to me. btw)

The only sword likely to be damaged when blocking with the forte against an incoming blow belongs to the guy hitting you as you well know.

Anyway, given that I reckon you understand my position and I reckon I understand yours, this probably can be dropped now.

Back on topic, I really hate when really good scenes are ruined by poor weaponry. A good example is Rob Roy which was one of the most exciting fight scenes ever. Cunningham's weapon was just completely out of period. It was something of what I would call a "transitional sidesword" better suited to the early 1600s than to Rob Roy's time. Cunningham could have easily been given a spadroon to fight with don't you think?
Cheers,
Stu.

[Brian Hunt]

Hi Stuart,

Back on topic, I really hate when really good scenes are ruined by poor weaponry. A good example is Rob Roy which was one of the most exciting fight scenes ever. Cunningham's weapon was just completely out of period. It was something of what I would call a "transitional sidesword" better suited to the early 1600s than to Rob Roy's time. Cunningham could have easily been given a spadroon to fight with don't you think?
Cheers,

that is a wonderful idea, but then Hollywood would have to acknowledge annoying details, such as historical accuracy. And we all know what a blow to creative expression that would be. <img src="/forum/images/icons/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Laters,

Brian Hunt.

[Casper Bradak]

What really gets to me is that they seem to get pretty historically accurate with armour and weapons, and clothes, and even custom when it comes to asian movies, but when it comes to european ones there's no respect. A good example is last samurai and timeline coming out at about the same time even!

[Jay Vail]

a properly aimed strike with a decent deflecting fendente followed by a thrust might be nice to see from time to time

Well, to be fair, I think I saw Boromir perform a defensive fendente against a blow from above just before he got shot. It happened fast, and I'll have to watch that scene again to be sure. Either I am mistaken or it was an accident. <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />