William Hope's method of thrusting

[Don Roley]

Hi,
I have Mark Rector's book on Highland SWordsmanship. In it, there is the text by William Hope called the New Method of Fencing. Hope mainly revolves around the use of the hanging guard, or secondary guard as he sometimes calls it.

I can figure out the methods of defense from this guard, but chapter 6, (page 153) is just too difficult for a novice like me to understand. He supposably gives two methods of thrusting from the hanging guard, but I can't figure out what he is trying to say. A friend of mine who is one of the models has been unable to tell me what Hope was trying to convey. The jargon is just too thick for us.

Can anyone here tell me in simple, modern Englsih just how you thrust from the hanging guard?

Don Roley- Japan

[Jake_Norwood]

Hi Don.

I don't have the book, so we may not even be on the same page here, but I'm assuming that the "hanging guard" you're refering to is the same as the German Hengen an probably Silver's High Guardant.

It seems to me that the most obvious way to thrust from here is simple to extend the arm and thrust down, since the point is allready directed at your opponent. However, I find it unlikely that you didn't see that, so what am I missing?

Jake

[Casper Bradak]

Can you be more specific? I don't see anything about 2 specific thrusts from that guard. Can you give a specific page #? I do see that he talks about quite a bit you can do from and against it though.
(and for Jake, yeah it's the same guard)

[Stuart McDermid]

Hi Casper,

Actually these guards aren't the same at all.

Silver's true guardant is what Hope would refer to as a hanging guard in "prime" meaning that the blade is held next to the left side of the head with the blade sloping back towards the left knee. This guard covers your inside line.

Hope's hanging guard is the hanging guard in "seconde". Instead of being by the left ear, the guard is held with the arm straight out from the shoulder but high enough to cover the head and with the point sloping forwards towards your left side in order to cover your inside line.

The advantage of Silver's version is that it covers the inside line extremely securely and that it denies a blade engagement to an adversary. The ward offers a good cutting but a comparatively poor thrusting threat. One has to move through Hope's hanging guard in order to thrust.

The advantage of Hope's version is that is narrow spaced against thrusting wards and offers a thrusting threat. One has to move through Silver's hanging guard in order to cut.

As for two ways to thrust from the hanging guard, these may be as simple as a question of line. Inside and outside? I don't know for sure but if you cite page numbers Don I would be happy to offer an interpretation. Hope is pretty easy once you are familiar with fencing terminology.
Cheers,
Stu

[Casper Bradak]

Hehe I thought you'd be able to give input on this Stuart. I have Hopes manual but it's far from my specialty. Your interpretation of Silvers hanging guard is a new one on me. I guess there still are drastically different interpretations out there.

[Stuart McDermid]

Hi Casper,

Hope isn't my specialty either, he just uses what is essentially the common hanging guard of the day.

I would be most interested to hear about your interpretation of Silver's hanger. Mine looks like the one for the messer in Talhoffer 1443 only with the blade sloping towards me as per Silver's instructions.
Cheers,
Stu.

[Casper Bradak]

Sorry can't compare real well, I don't know where to take a look at the one from Talhoffer's manual. I'm not sure what you mean by keeping it by the left ear. I was thinking of a regular hanging ward w/out Silvers modifications when I said it was like Hopes (except for the point being a bit off to the left and down). The way I do Silvers true guardant, is with the hilt high and to the right, with the point hanging and to the left. I pull it in a bit as per his advice, and (depending on what I want to do from it) bring the point back a bit as per his advice. I never actually have the point slope towards me though, usually just at a 45 deg. angle towards my opponent, and never breaking the vertical line. If you don't drag your point too far back it's still a very viable thrusting ward, only needing to move the point a short distance to bring it in line.
I think it actually encourages a crossing of blades, as it's very defensive, covering your left (whether it covers inside or outside line depends on the forward foot). But with the point closer, as Silver advises, it discourages a beat, or a crossing of blades intentionally initiated by the bad guy, which is why he advises it.
Like a transitional hanging parry or fiddle bow stance made static. Here's how I figure it.
"The perfect is to carry your hand and hilt above your head with your point down towards your left knee, with your sword blade somewhat near your body, not bearing out your point but rather declining it a little towards your said knee, that your enemy cross not your point and so hurt you, ( I take all this to mean that it's a standard hanging guard with the point a bit more hanging, down and left, but not to the point of hanging vertically or back, and the arm not outstretched so much as usual.) stand bolt upright in his fight, and if he offers to press in then bear your head and body a little backward."
I can see also how interpretation of this could vary with stance, being which leg is forward.

[Brian Hunt]

For those who are interested here is a picture from Hope's book describing the hanging ward. Figures 1 and 2 are in his standard hanging ward.



Stuart, is figure 7 similar to Silver's hanging ward that you are describing?

I hope that helps.

Brian Hunt.

[Stuart McDermid]

Hi Brian,

Thanks for posting the pic.

Yep Figure 12 is similar to Silver's version. If you stand a little more upright with both knees bent and the sword arm lifted up so you can easily see under it, you have our interpretation of Silver's hanging guard.

Because Silver says that the point should slope back towards the left knee, our interpretation is that he holds true guardant with the right leg forward to make this practical. We also find that his counters work better with the right foot forward too.

The BIG difference between the two guards is that Hope's guard closes the line of attack against a reverso whilst inviting a mandritta and Silver's guard closes the line of attack against the mandritta and invites a reverso. Another big difference is that Hope seeks narrow space on the opposing weapon by extending his guard. Parries with Hope's version require very little movement of the hand.

Silver keeps his guard back requiring a longer hand movement but also keeping true space so he only has to defend the space he occupies.- this forces the opponent into distance if he wishes to offend which allows Silver his defence via the three actions. The time of the hand is long enough in Silver's hanger that does advise that it is not a good guard to keep against thrusting guards. Against thrusts he advises that forehand wards are best.

Incidentally, the guy I fight at single sword the most is a left hander. (Some of you probably know or know of him-Paul Wagner). Against Paul I find that the hanging guard in seconde is better than in prime because I can cut off his primary attack which at single sword is a mandritto fendente.
Cheers,
Stu.

[Casper Bradak]

The most common interpretation I've seen is more like fig.1, or something between fig.1 nd 7. I think it's a matter of how literally you take Silver's writing. Plenty of room for interpretation.

[Stuart McDermid]

Hi Casper,

I really don't see how you can get a ward that looks like Fig.1 above out of the instructions for Silver's True Guardant.

The relevant passage: (emphasis mine)

The perfect is to carry your hand & hilt above your head with your point down towards your left knee, with your sword blade somewhat near your body, not bearing out your point but rather ***declining it a little towards your said knee, that your enemy cross not your point & so hurt you***, stand bolt upright in his fight, & if he offers to press in then bear your head & body a little backward.

Here is his description of True Guardant badly done

The imperfect is when you bear your hand & sword hilt perfect high above your head, as aforesaid, but leaning or stooping forward with your body & thereby your space will be wide on both sides to defend the blow struck at the left side of your head or too wide to defend a thrust from the right side of the body.

Also it is imperfect, if you bear your hand & hilt as aforesaid, bearing your point too far out from your knee, so that your enemy may cross, or strike aside your point, & thereby endanger you.

Here IMHO is Silver's description of a hanger in seconde:
(2) Imbrocata(18): is to lie with your hilt higher than your head, bearing your knuckles upward, & your point depending toward your enemy's face or breast.

Seems pretty clear cut to me. I'll be interested to hear your counter-argument.
Respectfully,
Stu.

[Casper Bradak]

I doubt I can put up a strong argument, but here's what I think....
I think he's saying, as opposed to the commonly done imbrocatta or unicorn, bring your point a little farther back, towards your left knee, or left side, helping to keep it out of harms way. Not to actually point your sword back in a screwy high tail guard. If you do take his advice more literally or exagerated, with your left foot forward the point still shouldn't break the vertical plane. But I could see either foot being forward. It seems sword forward is the preferred single weapon method of his time, but since he does use a blade that cuts, who knows?
I'd like to hear more about your version though, I'm always open to suggestions.

[Don Roley]

Stuart wrote,

"Don I would be happy to offer an interpretation. Hope is pretty easy once you are familiar with fencing terminology."

"The BIG difference between the two guards is that Hope's guard closes the line of attack against a reverso whilst inviting a mandritta and Silver's guard closes the line of attack against the mandritta and invites a reverso."

I am soooooo confused!!!!

Ok guys, want me to start talking about itto as oppsed to hitotsu no tachi? This is why I have problems with the text. Not because Hope does not know what he is talking about, but because I can't understand the jargon. Chapter 6 (page 153) is the section on offensive actions from his guard. I know that much. But trying to figure out what he is saying is beyond my little brain. I think that I can understand his defensive terms because I was looking for a universal concept to link into what I do from what the FMA guys do after a strike from the upper right across the body to the left and into what hey call the "roof guard" in some systems. But trusting from there is beyond my experince.

But thanks for the help so far. I was kind of surprised at the help put forward to an unkown like me.

[Brian Hunt]

Hi Don,

A Riverso is a left to right cut, and is also called a Manverso.
A Mandritta is a right to left cut, and is also called a Mandritti.

Hope that helps you out some with the terminolgy. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

Brian Hunt.

[Don Roley]

Thanks, it kind of helps. but my original question still stands. Is there a simple explination for the best way to thrust from this position?

Would looking at Silver help here? Or is there some great difference that would change the dynamics?

To my inexperienced eye, the point is held pointing so low that to thrust straight in from that point requires the tip to be raised and then the entire arm brought down in a thrust from above. This does not seem to be very economic in movement. Nor does the right hand palm facing to the right seem the strongest way to hold a sword as you thrust.

Bringing down the sword and then thrusting is not economical as well. Unless you void off the line of an attack while doing so.

As you can see, I am an idiot when it comes to the sword. Which is why I am asking. Please make the answers simple for my little mind!