Vom Tag;"on" the shoulder or "over"

[Shawn Cathcart]

Context within the manuals is often key as well, but also unfortunately often lacking. If I'm thinking of the technique you are the text seems to state that you start standing that way. To me it could more easily come from fighting one opponent and then upon hearing one approach you from behind, leaning forward and turning your head over your shoulder to look at him, thus seeing where he is and in what guard, and also leaning forward to give yourself a small cushion of extra space for safety. A quick shoulder check if you will, before you turn to face him proper. In the context of the image, its rather hard to tell. It could also simply be a stylized depiction of the action, or an exaggeration. I know often times when trying to show students even something as simple as a normal downward cut with proper footwork, I over-exaggerate my steps and cut, as it sometimes helps people understand the action, perhaps something similiar is happening here. Again its hard to tell. I find when dealing with images and techniques in the manuals, put it in the most unfair positions possible and drill with wasters (with someone whose control you trust <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" /> ) and see if it is still useable. Manuals are a guide, not a bible in my opinion, and so any interpretation should be taken with a grain of salt. To say that, well its depicted in the manual so it must have worked, is rather dangerous. Your interpretation of what is being depicted is your whole basis for the technique executed...if its wrong, well then... <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />. The very fact that most images in the manuals make infinitely more sense when you have the accompanying text should instantly speak to how careful we have to be in judging anything "shown" in the manuals.

[Jeffrey Hull]

SMcD:

So...have you sparred that stuff with wooden wasters, rather than shinai?

JH

[Stuart McDermid]

Hi Jeff,

We train with both with Shinai and with Steel. Steel keeps us honest in our binding and parrying whilst the Shinai are good for playing with full speed attacks. Apart from the fact that you guys use boffers and transition through wasters rather than shinai, isn't this what you do? We like shinai because we can play with much less armour than with wasters, they flex really well in a thrust, and they don't bounce anywhere near as much as wasters do.


Hi John,
I take your points about keeping things practical and making sure they work. I must say though that if something is depicted in a manual from a period when they were very expensive to produce, then I reckon it must have worked for someone somewhere. If I can't make it work then I usually assume my translation is at fault rather than the source material though.
Cheers,
Stu.

[Shane Smith]

One potential roadblock to understanding exists simply because the individual images from a given source text are literally "snapshots" in time taken at any given point during the application of a given technique. To determine what point of the application is being portrayed can sometimes be a bit tricky,especially when the wrong plate ends up with the wrong text as I believe occurs in the Codex Wallerstein although the exact plate numbers escape me at the moment.

I will say that when I am studying a manual and working through it's applications, if the text and image seem to disagree,I give more credence to the text simply because it is more of a known quantity in most cases(given sound translation, which is an art of it's own LOL!).I find if I work though the text long enough,the image usually becomes relevant to the text in a flash of revelation. The picture NEVER tells the whole story,it merely illustrates one moment in time and in that sense,perhaps it is more mnemonic as John suggests ie.the text says do thus if you find yourself standing thus as shown in the image.

[Shane Smith]

Hi Stu,
We do not use "boffers" as most are aware. Our padded weapons are flexible along the flat in such a way as to perform in a more swordlike manner in the bind and the parry. They have a defined edge that allows us to work our edge alignment with certainty at speed and it is in this primary area where I feel the padded weapon("boffer indeed!? <img src="/forum/images/icons/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" /> ) exceeds the utility of the shinai. They also have a padded pommel and a crossguard which allows for historically-accurate pommel strikes to be made to a largely unarmoured opponent in relative safety. In this area they exceed the shinai in my opinion as well.They likewise have a reasonably accurate weight and balance whereas the shinai I used in my Asian training were very light and unrealistically quick to motion.

[Stuart McDermid]

Hi Shane,

When we say "boffer" we mean any padded weapon. No connotation attached.

Stew,

Interesting. I find wasters to bounce to a degree I am not willing to accept. It may be that Aussie woods are a little more flexible and bouncy than yours.

Weight aside, I can't see any advantages a waster has over a shinai anyway. Perhaps a new thread is in order? My point about speed and the shinai was that I can make posta di donna work just fine even though they are light. If I can make the posture work with light weapons then I can't see how it would be difficult with heavier ones.
Cheers,
Stu.

If I wield a Fiore style/Silver style bastard sword I do find that Shinai move faster, but not that much faster. If you are playing with honkin' great German things I can see the difference being much greater.

[Jamie Fellrath]

Stuart McD,

The issue you run into describing padded swords as boffers is that boffers are an specific type of padded weapon that

• Doesn't have proper weight/balance
• Is too flexible to be used realistically
  

Our padded swords are designed to be as realistic as possible for the purposes of realistically recreating the techniques of Historical European Swordsmanship. Using anything too light or whippy (like a boffer) doesn't allow for the use of proper technique. Hence, describing our padded swords as "boffers" is quite incorrect (and a point of contention for many of us).

[Webmaster]

Stuart,

The hickory wasters we use here in the U.S. do have a pretty strong rebound when encountering hard opposition from another waster, but we generally don't find it to be significant in most deflecting or beating actions. If you follow through on your action, the waster's momentum guided by your body generally overcomes any rebound effects.

Although I really have no experience with shinai, I can say that the purposeful shaping of a waster to mimic a real sword is as important as the weight for handling characteristics. Not everything is perfect of course (the crosses are always too thick to allow a completely accurate grip around that area), but the different shapes, balances, weights, lengths, pommel types, etc. available on wasters allow a great deal of experimentation with grips, binds, windings and other things that aren't springing to mind yet. The weight itself serves as another incentive to learn control, perhaps less urgent than steel but more so than lighter weapons or padded ones. Personally I prefer wasters to padded weapons, mainly for performance and because I feel relatively safe sparring with them with the people I train with. If you believe shinai can give you a comparable experience I'm interested to hear it.

[Stuart McDermid]

Hi Jamie,

Boffers to you are a specific type of weapon. Not to us.

Once again I stress that this is just the name we use downunder for any padded weapon of any type. I'll try and remember to use your terminology when posting here in future.
You will probably find though that most Aussies will call any padded sword a boffer.
Cheers,
Stu.

[Stuart McDermid]

Hi Stacy,

The best aspects of Shinai performance are that they bind, will flex in a thrust and have that wonderful give to them that is in no way related to their weight or flex like other sparring weapons.

They are considerably lighter than the real thing which can be considered a problem although with bastard swords being so fast anyway with two hands on them I am willing to accept the drawback. Having no discernable edge is a bigger problem. We have tried a couple of mods, none of which we liked and have accepted that discipline and use of the hands and cross as a guide will tell us when we are cutting properly.

The way the "lames" (for want of a better word) collapse means that you get far less bounce, the weapons bind and also the impact is reduced on the target without having the weapon bend or be soft.

They are considerably cheaper than wasters (45 AUD at least here in Aus) and more easily available (at least here in Aus) and in their basic form can be adapted for longsword play in about 5 minutes of work. You simply replace the Japanese handguard with one you cut yourself out of high impact plastic. One of our guys has adapted the handle of his by running slats up it which make it bigger and nicer to hold whilst helping to pin the handguard on. (Must get around to doing this) Adding pommels and things is also a doddle.

You can play very hard indeed with these things and end up with nothing worse than bruises despite wearing only a mask, field hockey gorget and some liight cheapo boxing gloves (That we also use for BKB anyway). It is most unpleasant to be hit with a Shinai on pretty much any target area. Kendo guys wear a fair old bit of armour.

One of the major problems with padded weapons is that the reluctance to be hit that you get from any other weapon goes away which changes the game immesurably. You can belt people with shinai and have it sting but not injure which is the perfect situation if you ask me.
I can't really compare directly to wasters because I think I have handled one only once in my life! We actually rejected them out of hand as sharing the disadvantages of both steel and boffers with the added disadvantage over steel of not flexing in a thrust.

Incidentally, we are thinking about adopting shinai as singlesticks as they will require less armour and feel like a single sword. 1.33 with full force thrust-strikes certainly sounds like fun doesn't it?
Cheers,
Stu.

[Casper Bradak]

Hehe I know our padded weapons don't make people lose too much fear, at least not me. I've had bones broken by them. But anyway, I wouldn't consider the loss of some fear all bad, it lets some people try techniques they normally might not, which is what sparring is for.
I'd think that, even if you don't personally see much value in wasters, that any historical fencer would train with them on the simple basis that they seemed to be such an important and widely used tool historically, used by the ones who trained in these arts because they needed to.

[Webmaster]

I have to agree with Casper, loss of fear isn't that much of a problem with ARMA-style padded swords. Remember that ours have a solid, shaped core which, though somewhat flexible, still packs some mass and considerable puch. We've all gone home with bruises from them (grinning all the way), though that's the first broken bone I've ever heard of from them. I would say our padded fighting experience would be roughly equivalent to what you do with shinai, taking into account weight and handling differences.

I will grant that you can't thrust full force with wasters or steel, but that doesn't mean you can't thrust at all. It's probably not recommended for less experienced fighters, but a controlled, accurate and still very quick thrust can be executed with both steel and wood without causing serious bodily harm. I've done some pretty scary-looking stuff with John without ever suffering worse than bruises or very minor cuts from steel. Fact is, wasters are the most historically accurate training tool we have, as Casper points out, and that's how we want to approach it. I can understand some of your concerns, but if you have a chance to train with wasters at some point and spar with people who use them regularly, don't be afraid to try it as long as everyone treats it with respect. In the end I think it will speak for itself.

[Stuart McDermid]

Hi Stacy,

I will certainly have a go with wasters at the first opportunity I get. Thanks for the well reasoned argument. The historical accuracy thing is one of the reasons I *would* go with wasters.

Your "paddies" sound like they give a pretty good thump.
You should give shinai a go if you get the chance though, it's nice being able to play pretty much full speed and contact.
Cheers,
Stu.

[Jeffrey Hull]

Yes, my point was that wasters are superior to shinai, in that the former have discernable edges, are heavier, and have cruciform crossguards and significant pommels, whilst the latter do not. Hence I think them better for sparring the European fightbooks. I would reccomend them as a tool for such, wherewith I am sure most ARMA guys would agree. JH.