Lack of Master Strikes

[Casper Bradak]

Don't ask me Stu, I hadn't heard otherwise, just replying to Craig.

[Craig Peters]

Not a zwerchau, and definitely not in the context of a master cut. He's cutting upwards from a low bind. He may be cutting the guys arm or his cut may still be rising. See the next 2 pics.

Hmm.. that makes sense. Since I'm still inexperienced when it comes to swordsmanship, and I have not made it to a ARMA gathering or seen a Zwerchhau preformed in a video, I will probably be incorrect more often than not. <img src="/forum/images/icons/frown.gif" alt="" />

He also illustrates techniques in which he uses fendente, though I haven't read whether he advises against them or not. As example there's a technique just a few pics down in which he uses a fendente after an elbow push.

I'd also like to add that I might be incorrect about the Fendente. I'm not sure how often the master actually uses the strike in Flos Duellatorum- it seems fairly rarely, but this might be a poor interpretation.

[Jeffrey Hull]

CP:

You wrote:

*In one image, the crowned master is pinning his adversary's sword to the ground with his foot and striking his foe on the arm near the waist. (The translated text that accompanies the image reads "I quickly kick your tip to the ground
And this way I'll hit you without any doubt.") It looks to me as though the strike the master is using here might be a Zwerchhau. What does everyone else think?*

Well, I think that it is akin to the "voiding and then attacking" whereof you spoke, so that this thing in Fiore is similar to a Schnitt from Nachreisen -- the Master has voided and stepped in return upon the blade to slash the Advesary upon his nearest target (the arm) in after-time -- so hence not a Zwerchhau as a Meisterhau.

Perhaps this seems reasonable to you.

JH

[Rob Lovett]

With this technique the Student passes to his right raising into Frontale (Crown, Kron) and strikes down at the opponents blade to force it to ground. When trapped the control is changed to the foot and a false edge blow is delivered to the face, immediately followed by a true edge strike to the wrists.

It is more detailed in the Getty, at least compared to Novati.

As far as the original question asks, it is difficult to tell. I believe that the tactical considerations are different between the two systems, but there seems to be some similarities between the two...... if you reach the incrosada and the move into Finestra you have wound against the blade, and you will be thrusting at the same time - sounds German doesn't it, from here the other person has the option of disengaging or exchanging the point, if doing the former maybe falling outside of German systems, if doing the latter, well definately seems to be another winding action.

The point the John (Prof Anglo) raised stands, Fiore probably did know about German systems, especially if the prologue is to be believed, but it is difficult to tell what is or is not included in a particular system, well, more difficult to tell what is NOT included in a system.

I have found throughout working on our interpretation it is important to keep an open mind and explore all possibilites.

Regards
Rob

[Shane Smith]

Welcome to the forum Rob. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

[Jake_Norwood]

A shallower angle and you are very vulnerable to being Krumped

Stu-

Just trying to understand, not criticize, but are you saying that you're not in danger of being krumped at any angle? I find that the krump covers just about everything...

Jake

[Stuart McDermid]

Hi Jake,

No I'm not.
Just that a krump is a very good response against a flatter attack (say 55 degrees or so) and not so good against a shallower one (say 70 degrees or so).
The attacker change lines more easily and later in the action to the opposite side to deceive a krump. Also the Krump must be a little quicker and stronger against a shallower cut as you are likely to strike the opposing blade a little closer to your forte.

The Krumphau is probably my favourite of the meisterhauen.
Cheers,
Stu.