Horizontal swing defense

[Guest]

I am a bit new to the art of fencing with two handed swords so please pardon my ignorance but... My four friends and I fight with 2lb foam swords with 38" blades. We have formed our own study group in Irvine, Ca and it has been a blast! A former college baseball player has been using a baseball style stance and horizontal swing (high-medium-low) which is delivered with such power it seems unstoppable. I have found that I must either evade it completely or strike first and usually enter into a grappling contest. The wards I have seen are just too slow and seem based on guessing the angle of attack before he starts his swing. Am I missing something? Is there a particular ward or guard which you have used with succes against this type of fast hard attack?

[Guest]

Just to add some information. The stance i am seeking to counter is very similar to the Vom Tag? that is illustrated on page seven of the thread below. Is there a particular counter stance for the Vom Tag stance?

[Patrick Hardin]

Ryan,

First of all, do your foam swords have discernible edges? If so, then I offer this for your consideration: Swinging in a baseball style, I think, will likely be totally ineffective, because baseball bats are not swung like swords. If you swing a sword like a baseball bat, your wrists will cross as you swing, turning the edge of the sword towards the ground and away from your opponent. Thus, when the blade makes contact, it is with the flat and not the edge, so your opponent is only bruised, not killed. With blunt objects like sticks and baseball bats, this doesn't matter, but with edged weapons, it matters a whole lot. I see new students to swordsmanship doing this all the time. Try and watch to see if his wrists are crossing as he swings his weapon.

Now, if you're not using foam swords with discernible edges, then my advice is to get or make some. There is a good article on the ARMA website about making padded weapons.

As for countering the blow, if he is actually striking with the edge, evasion and counter-cutting is always preferrable to parrying. But if you have to put your blade in the path of his, you might try some halfswording. That will greatly increase your ability to stop his blade and counter.

As for countering his guard, one of the meisterhau is supposed to be used against vom tag. It is called zwerchau, a high horizontal cut from right to left using the false edge. Hope this helps, and good luck.

Patrick Hardin

[Guest]

Well, I don't really know how experienced you are(you didn't mention if you've used other types of swords before), but I'm going to assume that you're a beginner, so bear with me if I'm stating the obvious.

First, I'd like to point out that the point of foam swords is to not hurt each other. Sword technique can be refined without power, so you should tell him to mellow out. If his cut is "unstoppable", it's gonna hurt like heck if it lands.

But, if he's putting so much power behind it, he'll end up pretty committed to his attack, so let's have fun with it. Sure, you could parry it, and it's possible that if you parried and stepped to the side, it will have lost most of its power by the time it gets to you. But, it would be far more effective to let it pass you and attack as he recovers. Be aware that, while he may be inexperienced, it's fairly easy to chain together multiple attacks, so look out for another blow. If he just attacks once, with immense power, this should be easy. You should especially pay attention if he leads with his head or shoulder.

Now, as for wards/guards, I probably can't help you. I use many different guards, and there are a few that would be useful to you, but I'm not familiar with the names(what are they, german?). The only one I know is ochs/ox, and I'm not totally sure of that one, either. I know ARMA's got an article about it, but I'm not sure if it covers them all, because I don't remember reading about a lot of the ones I've heard.

This doesn't really matter, though, because the best defense would be to keep your distance and let him miss you, ideally by a small amount(but more distance is safer than less when a sword is flying at you).

[Jay Vail]

Possible defenses:

1. Pflug then thrust

2. Halfsword then thrust or pommel

3. One step back, then one step forward and counter with cut to arm

4. Attack first

[Webmaster]

Here's the link again to our article on guards for longsword, fully illustrated:

http://www.thearma.org/essays/StancesIntro.htm

Pflug will be your strongest guard for stopping most horizontal cuts between the shoulders and the thighs, short of half-swording. Alber/Boar's Tooth/Iron Door protects the legs, though getting them out of the way is better, and a hengen is your best bet to protect your head most of the time.

One thing John has been telling us down here in Houston lately is how the the best way to oppose your opponent's guard is very often with the same guard (at least if you're both right-handed). If he's making all his swings more or less horizontal, whether they be high or low, I would suggest taking up a vom tag stance and breaking his cut with a downward vertical or diagonal strike, then following up with a thrust or a round strike (continuing your cut in a complete circle to come around again), or strike back upward with a false-edge cut from boar's tooth. Slam his cut to the ground a few times and he'll begin to rethink his strategy. You can do this stepping in or out as you feel necessary dictated by the range. If you hit him on the first downward cut as you break his cut, that's even better.

[Guest]

Thank you all. I think I understand what you've told me. My swords do not have discernible edges and I will attempt to construct some that do. Many great pointers for me. Thanks again.

[John_Clements]

Experiment with this: raise your weapon to receive the blow from the portion of his blade near his cross and against the portion of your own blade near cross, do so just as you step in closer to him right when he strikes. The key is to simultaneaously lift your weapon while keeping it close to you, not held out, and to do this at the same moment you suddenly move forward.

[Ryan Ricks]

i was under the impression (from the books) that the strikes should more or less originate close to your body, from the center, and should be angled.

i thought something like a baseball swing where the sword goes in a horizontal arc was in appropriate, becaues it seems like their arms would be much more vulnerable to counter attack, compared to striking from the high or back guard.

?

ryan