feinting?

[Ryan Ricks]

how can you tell a feint from a real strike? i know there's a certain point of no return, where a person is then committed, but what do you watch? their sword? their arm? passing back with the left foot seems to decrease the effectiveness of a feint, but still. any help on this?

ryan

[Casper Bradak]

Plenty of practice. Feints are mostly effective on those who defend without threatening.

[Guest]

What kind of weapon are you dealing with?

[Ryan Ricks]

sword and shield. but i'm sure this will apply when we get to long sword as well

[Casper Bradak]

There you have it. Like I said, feints work best on those who defend without threatening. What's one of the biggest reasons for using a shield? So that you can make single time counter attacks.
Whether he feints or attacks, your shield should be defending while your sword is attacking, at the same time. If you're just doing the old one two, back and forth, defend and then attack, his feints and combinations will get him what he wants a lot faster, and you might as well not be using a shield with your sword, as it will only be giving you minimal benefit.

[Ryan Ricks]

yeah, actually we were gonna get to defending and countering at the same time, but i figured it would be better to start off with defending first, then layer on countering.

we were basically going for a step by step approach. so it would be better to skip all that and go straight for the whole deal?

john doesn't really give any detailed lesson plans in that book, so i was just kinda trying to see what would work best

[Stuart McDermid]

Hi Ryan

There are plenty of systems out there that defend before counterattcking if blade contact is to be part of the defence.

I will use an English backsword example as I find it easiest to explain concepts using backsword systems.

Wyld for example says you must react to every feint as if it is a real attack. He gets away with this by keeping narrow space when guarding to force a large disengagement. If an opponent approaches in the outside guard, he will oppose with the same or a hanger in seconde.

If we are dealing with widespace, the situation becomes a little less certain no disengage is required to attack. Options such as slipping and countercutting, using slapping cross parries or using hanging guards are best here.

eg. You are lying in a seconde hanger and someone feints to your inside line. As you go to make a prime parade (hanging parry) they continue their blow in a big circle and finish on your outside (where you started).
Instead of trying to bring back your hanging guard which would be way too slow, you turn it over and beat the incoming weapon with an outside cut.

Eg2
You are lying on the outside guard and are opposed with the same. Your opponent disengages over you weapon and cuts to your open inside. Without changing to an inside guard (which would be slow) you beat their blade with your false edge. (cross parry-you must slip when you cross parry as you cannot protect your legs other wise) If the blow turns out to be a feint and is continued back around to your outside, then you haven't changed hand orientation for the outside guard and have plenty of time to parry with an outside.

Shields make for a slightly different game where if you don't engage shields as you attack you will likely be a victim of a single time defence as Stew F. suggests.
If you properly engage shields as you attack you can tie up both sword and shield for long enough to score a hit. It is the interplay between shields before strikes are even launched that define good shield play IMHO.
You open, close and control fencing lines with them just like the sword in your other hand. IMHO the "re-enactor" ward of holding your shield flat against your body is suicide outside of a shield wall IMHO. The shield can be bound in the top cornerand you can be badly and esily exposed on your sword side.

Good information on shield techniques can be found in the duelling shield section of Talhoffer 1467. I find these concepts to work reasonably well with a few alterations to all types of shields. A nice commentary on the style is found in SPADA magazine which contains articles from the leaders in WMA including ARMA's own JC.
Cheers,
Stu.

[Casper Bradak]

You fight like you train, so train in the best habits. Just practicing your shield blocks and strikes is good of course, but keep it more along the lines of drill than free play. You can stand on guard and have your partner throw single strikes and thrusts while you practice blocks and counters.

[Ryan Ricks]

our class friday will cover stepping back with the left foot out of cuts, and stepping into them. i thought it would be good for us (me and 9 others) to practice stepping in and out as attacks are coming, and then once everyone has the mechanics of that down, then to build in countering at the same time. i'm trying to take baby steps, so that we can all digest it easily.

i've been studying and practicing what's in john's book for a couple years on my own, and starting like a month ago just began practicing with others. most everyone else in the group has no prior experience.

so far we've done the three guards with sword and shield, the attacks from each guard, practicing at the pell, and test cutting on milk jugs filled with water.

if anyone has any good adivce on lesson plans, that would be great.

ryan