Tameshigiri with Euro swords

[Lance Chan]

I was having tameshigiri spanning for 2 days. The swords used were a tinker 2001-104 XVIIIa hand, a half and an atrim 15C short sword and a khurkri (ok, not euro sword this one). The former two were heavily sharpened by myself.

In the first video, besides the usual downward diagonal cuts you usually see, there were other cuts such as:

The flow (2 handed continuous cuts)
The flow (right handed single cuts from the flow)
The spring (left handed)
Deflect-counter cut from middle guard
Pass-backward cut
Flat cut
Free standing cuts
Tip cuts
Upward diagonals
Upward diagonal followed by downward diagonal

http://lancelot.servehttp.com/Sunday%20Butchers/Test%20cutting%2024-10-02/Lancelot%20highlights%2024-10-02.rm

In the second one, besides the cuts listed above, there were:

Khurkri cuts
Hanging-parry-counter-cut (downward diagonal with pass-forward footwork)
Void-counter-cut (downward diagonal with pass-backward footwork)
The flow (2 handed continuous cutting with 3 cuts on the same target)

http://lancelot.servehttp.com/Sunday%20Butchers/Test%20cutting%2025-10-02/Lancelot%20highlights%2025-10-02.rm

[Guest]

Lance,

Thanks for sharing, but those files are huge! I just don't have the patience to wait while they download (and I've got a cable modem) Also, and please don't take this personally, it's just a pet peave of mine, I really hate it when people apply Asian terms to European swordsmanship. We don't do "tameshigiri", we just call it "cutting" or "test cutting".

[TimSheetz]

Hi all,

Lance lives in Hong Kong. Good tip on the test cutting terminology, Matt. Though using grass mats is an Asian practice....

Lance does a pretty good job of getting folks there to see the credibility of Western Swordsmanship.

I also have plans to hop on over to Hong Kong from Korea and do some training/sparring with his group there.

[Lance Chan]

Thanks for your introduction, Tim. I'm looking forward to meet you in person.

Matt, in addition, we did it in Toyama Ryu dojo (JSA). While I can always cut way easier with their specialized katana, I insisted on using my own swords to cut the JSA traditional targets in a WMA style to show them how well WMA and Euro swords can cut.

[Guest]

Lance,

I'm sorry for the bitchy tone of my post yesterday, I was really cranky and shouldn't have taken it out on you. Thanks for sharing the vids and please keep posting. Welcome to the forum!

[Lance Chan]

Roger that, Matt!

I've tons of videos of our practices, may it be the weekly sparring or the less frequent test cutting. We take recording each time we do both. So if there is anyone who's interested in viewing those stuff, just ask away. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

My computer was downed for the whole afternoon and evening (in Hong Kong time), took me lots of effort to get it back up. So for those who have attempted to download the video clips during the time, please try again now. <img src="/forum/images/icons/laugh.gif" alt="" />

[Guest]

Hi all, i was just wondering what kind of media player you need to be able to watch the 2 files

[Lance Chan]

.rm and .ram files are played by real player.

You may download a copy here: http://lancelot.servehttp.com/misc/rp8-setup.exe

[Jake_Norwood]

Lance-

What are those mats/targets you're cutting? Tatami? They seem pretty stout, and you've got a whole lot of them, so maybe they're not expensive...

[Lance Chan]

Yup. Tatami omote. The way the dojo processed them rendered them way harder than flesh, but softer than bone. 2.25 USD per roll.

[Jake_Norwood]

How did they render them to make them so hard? They seemed rather dry as well.

[Lance Chan]

There are in fact many kinds of different mats. Beach mats are very soft, bugei goza are quite soft too. They simulate flesh very well. Since the toyama ryu guys are mainly into the tameshigiri competition, they cut the competition targets, tatami omote, shipped to Hong Kong from Japan. These mats are 2 times as hard as beach mats at least. I've cut both, so I can tell. The tatami omote is so substantial that even your tightened thigh muscles won't be as hard as it. On the other hand, with beach mat, I can cut single handed tip cutting horizontally with a cheapo chinese made katana like laser. With tatami omote, dun even dream about it.

They soaked the mats overnight before cutting, just like the Japanese. So you see they are still quite dry. I suspect that many people who test cut with mats in USA were cutting softer mats, either made by different material (like beach mats, straw mats, bugei goza) or by soaking for a long long time before the test cutting. Even then, some sword makers I know had underestimated the techniques needed to cut the softer mats. They thought giving more power would do and criticized me, until they've tried it themselves. Actually, it's more about sharpness (edge geometry), blade alignment and speed. I would like to see how their faces look like when they try to cut the original tatami omote from Japan. Perhaps some respects are due. hehhe.

I can't say which one is more accurate. Just different simulations. The targets we cut are simulating material between flesh and bone, while the softer mats simulate flesh alone.

[Lance Chan]

To throw in some more information.... Here are some texts from www.tameshigiri.com

Tatami omote is the thin outer covering that is sewn onto the thick rice straw base of the tatami mat. When the cover wears out it is replaced with new tatami omote. The used tatami omote has become the target of choice for tameshigiri in Japan, and the United States.

Tatami omote is not made of rice straw as many people might think. It is made from the stems of a soft rush (juncus effusus) that grows in wetland areas. The stems are collected, cleaned, dried, and tightly woven to make a thin, soft mat. The choice of this traditional material over other materials to make targets for tameshigiri offers an important benefit. Mats made from other, more coarse materials, can scratch the polish on a sword or dull the cutting edge. The ground-in dirt that is found in used mats can also act as a fine abrasive when cutting.

Mat Type Comments
8 Tokutokujo- New Very thick, very expensive, slightly abrasive, and difficult to cut.
7 Tokujo- New Thick, expensive, very slightly abrasive, and difficult to cut.
6 Tokutokujo- Used Very rarely found in the U.S. and a challenge to cut well.
5 Jo- New Expensive to buy new but great to cut.
4 Tokujo and Jo- Lightly Used Most commonly sold "used" tatami in the U.S. (Very Nice)
3 Mugen Dachi Tatami Omote (Nami-New) Brand new Nami grade tatami omote made for tameshigiri.
2 Tokujo and Jo- Heavily Used Another commonly sold "used" tatami in the U.S.
1 Beach Mats Most common material used in the U.S. for tameshigiri (so far)

As a reference for people who are familiar with beach mat makiwara; a target made from three or four beach mats is similar to a target made from one Mugen Dachi mat, a target made from four or five beach mats is similar to a target made from one piece of lightly used tokujo or jo grade tatami.

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So Jake, please believe me... we are cutting something harder here than the majority mats in USA.

[Jake_Norwood]

Lance-

Don't worry. I believe you. I'm looking for a good source of cutting materials right now, which is why I ask. Thank you for your very informative answers. I'll be digging up a supplier soon, I think.

[steve hick]

Lance wrote:
>Yup. Tatami omote. The way the dojo processed them rendered them way harder than flesh, but softer than bone. 2.25 USD per roll. <

You're supposed to put bamboo in the center to emulate bone.
Steve