Sword and Shield.

[Brian Hunt]

Hi,

due to some posts here, and at other forums, I was wondering who else studies sword and shield, and what source materials they are using for their studies. Iconographical evidence, manuals, etc. I have personally looked at the dueling shield stuff of Talhoffer (although I have come to believe that the main thing to learn from this is how to properly use a dueling shield), the Italian rotella manuals, JC's book, and a couple things from some of the buckler materials that could be relevent to this type of study. Anyone View Hank Reinhardt's video on viking sword and shield? If so what did you think of it? What do you think the differences might be between a center held round shield, a rotella with two straps, and a curved heater? I feel a more open shield ward is appropriate for single combat with a center held round/rotella, as shown here.http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/NewManuals/DiGrassi/03001085.jpg
but a more closed/forward shield ward is what you would probably use with a curved heater for single combat and in a mass combat scenario with any shield type, as shown at the bottom here. http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/NewManuals/Marozzo/p077.jpg And shown here in the upper right corner. http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/NewManuals/Marozzo/p081.jpg I don't think of a shield as a static wall you carry around, but as more of an active defensive and offensive weapon. And of course the shield is also one of the nicest pair of brass knuckles you could ever choose to use on someone. <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

Thoughts, theories, hypothesis?

Brian Hunt
GFS

P.S. I am asking these questions to help further my own studies in sword and shield.

[Ryan Ricks]

hello brian!

my group and i are studying sword and shield. currently we're using mr. clement's book. there is enough in there to keep us busy for a while. our approach is to break down the concepts in the book into small, digestable pieces, and then drill with those until everyone has them before we move on.

currently we're working on single time offense/defense drills while passing forward and back. tonight we're going to do single time o/d while passing right and left.

we hold our shields in sort of a middle guard. we try and hold it as far out in front of us as possible, but still keeping the face of the shield pointed at the opponent. we try and hold the shield just as mr. clements has directed in his book.

we definately practice active shield use, but haven't been hitting each other with them, as they are unpadded at this time. we have, however, scheduled some class time to beat the pell with them.

shields are mostly heater type, although one girl has a smaller round one (not a buckler), and this guy has a sort of kite shaped one.

[Randall Pleasant]

Brian

Ernie Perez of the DFW study group does a lot of shield work. Most of it is based on JC's book and using concepts form I.33, such as protecting the sword arm during cuts.

[JeanryChandler]

I do a lot of sword and shield fighting, I have learned from trial and error against various opponents, but I've been learning a long time and I do pretty well with it (as I think Jake Norwood would testify) I also do axe and shield, spear and shield, mace and shield, and flail.

I use two different types of shields right now, a forearm strap-and-handle type made out of an aluminum stop-sign, and a large center grip buckler. I find the forearm strap shield is better for use against swords and shorter cutting or smashing weapons, and the buckler better against polearms.

The arm-strap shield has much more control, and I definately use the shield very actively, always trying to bind the enemies weapon for the rush and kill. It is important to stand with the knees slightly bent, protect the feet, and to remember to keep the shield in front of you, and not get drawn into opening up your guard unless you are striking.

The center grip buckler (historically much more widely used) is better against spears and polearms because it is positioned further out from your body, and it lets you keep them further back. Once you bind or beat you have to rush and be prepared for them to transition ...

I have tried some of the I33 stuff but I haven't mastered those techniques yet and I have little luck with them so far.

I'm planning to make a Viking roundshield and something like a Roman Scutum or a Celtic shield, both would be large centergrip shields. It will be interesting to see how they perform. (Legio XX has excellent designs posted on how to make an historically accurate scutum)

It is worth noting that historically most shields were a lot lighter than they make them in the SCA and most re-enactment groups, typicaly a thickness of about 3/8" is most common for example for both Viking Shields and Roman Scutum. They used a laminating technique which worked similar to plywood. Poplar and Birch are a historical types of wood though the most popular was Linden or true - limewood, which is seemingly unavailable in the states.

I also notice that I never strike with my shield, it seems to take too long. My preferred method is to bind or beat the enemies weapon and strike simultaneously extremely fast, often with a passing step in a rush. I have found that this is very very successful against both longswords and polearms of all types.

I personally don't like the heater shape much and I think that like the kyte, it was more appropriate for use from horseback.

DB

[Ryan Ricks]

interesting you say that about shield thickness. my personal shield is 5/16th thick plywood, which is just a little thinner than 3/8ths. i was under the impression that most real shields would be much thicker, of about 1/2 inch or so. i'm glad to hear this is not the case.

even with such a light shield (heater type), i can still get a good workout for my left arm after a long session. doubly so with the chain maille.

as per technique, if i'm passing forward into a cut, i try and smack/bind hard against the hilt of my opponent's sword as i'm delivering a counter-strike. this i found makes me much less vulenerable to feints.

ryan

[Brian Hunt]

Here are a couple of intersting web sites on how viking shields were constructed.

http://members.ozemail.com.au/~chrisandpeter/shield/shield.html
http://members.ozemail.com.au/~chrisandpeter/shield/tirskom.html

laters

Brian Hunt
GFS

[Matthew_Anderson]

Hi Brian,

We have done a lot of sparring with various types of shields and I agree that the type of shield greatly effects how it is used and what techniques can be done effectively. Using a small buckler for instance, is completely different than using a big barn door sized heater or kite shield. We have used pretty much the same sources as you, and worked out a lot of things through experimentation. Without a comprehensive manual devoted to shield use, what else can we do? We have recently been devoting more time to sword and buckler, using primarily 15thc. German sources of the Lichtenauer tradition and trying (mostly in vain) to fathom the I.33 material.

[Ryan Ricks]

one thing i've noticed, if you don't block just right with the shield, the swords can bounce off them and hit you anyway. this is pretty annoying.

ryan

[Shane Smith]

Hi Brian,

I am a big fan of sword and shield as well. The problem for all of us is that there simply is no period work on sword and medieval kite,heater or round. Some look to the massive dueling shields as seen in Talhoffer and the Codex Wallerstein for direction. I have a fundamental problem with that approach simply because the dueling shield is just so obviously different from the other forms in both proportion and attribute. To me assuming that the medium shield would be used just like a 6 foot tall dueling shield is no more of a stretch than claiming that the heater would be used as a buckler would. It just doesn't give me the warm and fuzzies to assert either position.

I wish there were a true medieval source-text for us to look to for our sword and shield work but for now all any of us can do is make educated guesses(as we deem them) and extrapolations from earlier battlefield shield-wall combat or later dueling weapons and Renn forms of shields.

I favor the shield face to be biased forward when fencing because it covers more of the bodies vital areas simultaneously and offers even more coverage with just a twist of the elbow. The problem with that? There is no proof showing that to be a historically-accurate way to employ a medieval shield apart from a bit of guessing of my own.

I look forward to the day when the surviving work on this art is found and we can put this baby to bed ...or at least narrow our debate as we have done with longsword. <img src="/forum/images/icons/crazy.gif" alt="" />