Flexibility of Plate Armour

[Craig Peters]

I was wondering about how well plate armour fits with changes in body size. Specifically, if you buy a harness tailored to your size and the bulk up from working out, will the harness still fit? How much flexibility is there regarding changes in body size. I suspect this varies depending upon whether the harness is full plate or a plate and mail combination.

[Casper Bradak]

It depends on the piece and the design, but a decent armourer should take into account when making it the use of varying thickness of gambeson or other padding, so there should be a bit of a margin. Probably your only real concern would be with a cuirass. Your body probably can't change enough to worry about most other pieces.
I have a gambeson that's rather bulky, and I've put on a few inches since my armour was made, and it make my enclosed cuirass a bit tight now. Also I have enclosed rerebraces that are getting tight. I have a gorget (doesn't go with the harness) that doesn't fit quite right because it sits on my traps now. Most armour people buy isn't enclosed and shouldn't be effected by some extra size though.
When ordering it you can always take into account extra size you may be putting on in the near future.

[Shane Smith]

I largely agree with Casper here. My harness was made for me and fits me reasonably well(I need better greaves/sabatons though <img src="/forum/images/icons/frown.gif" alt="" /> ). I don't see where putting on anything short of dozens of pounds would hinder the fit in any way. If you have full-armoured legs,they may well get a bit tight along with the breast-plate.

As for flexibility,it depends on the style and the maker. My harness is not overly pretty,but it allows me a very wide range of motion in every respect.I have no problem performing vom-tag over the head or anything else for that matter.My harness is 14th century pattern as seen below on the right.



So,what kind of harness are you looking into? <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

[Craig Peters]

So,what kind of harness are you looking into?

Actually, I am not looking into any harness at the moment Shane, largely due to the fact that I am 20 years old, in my second year of college, and cannot afford one. I'd like one that functions well (like your harness) and fits me well. I posed the question because I need to start working out to build up my strength and endurance, and it got me to wondering whether a harness can work with changes in body size and shape or not

One of my other questions is where to purchase a good quality harness from.

Anyways, I better go; I am meeting with a few people in ten minutes, and we're going to find a secluded location where we can work through some of the stuff from JC's book and Tobler's translation of Ringeck. Right now, I am sitting at a computer in the Okanagan University College library with two wasters concealed in a cardboard box at my side... <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

[Casper Bradak]

There are no shortage of armourers out there thanks to sport groups like the SCA. Most of them will do minor customization to make the armour more historically accurate.
I highly recommend illusion armoury. My armour is a customized complete 15th century italian style plate armour from them. Their work is very good and their prices are as well. Be sure to shop around though, and be careful, there are plenty of armouries and not all of them can be trusted unfortunately.

[Tim Merritt]

Casper--can you move well in it?

[Casper Bradak]

Yes, it's very unrestrictive, somersalts and all. Actually the only noticably restrictive part of it is the bulky revival clothing gambeson I got for it. Unfortunately I have yet to find another that suspends it so well. Hehe they make those things without waists for your usual reenactor types! I had to get it tailored by a furniture upholsterer. But still they make them so thickly padded it takes up a bit much space in there.

[Craig Peters]

Shane, who made your harness?

[Shane Smith]

The helm and aventail came from Valentine armouries. The verveilles to install the aventail came from a furniture store.I installed the verveilles and the aventail myself.

The riveted hauberk and gambeson came from Purple Heart armoury a long time ago.

The arming cap was a gift from Matt Anderson who's wife made it(And very well made it is!).

All of the plate was made by a local armourer,Roy (Mac) McDaniels of Dragons Armoury. It is well made in the sense that it fits my unusual height fairly well but there are a few things I would change(and will when I can afford to do so).I need better-shaped greaves and sabatons that fit together properly.Seemingly no-one is doing this kind of work at an affordable price and there is always a slight gap between the greaves and sabatons on every readily affordable harness I"ve seen lately. <img src="/forum/images/icons/frown.gif" alt="" /> I simply refuse to buy super high-dollar and high-polish armour for intense training as I see all of my gear as tools,but it seems that this one item which is often lacking would really set one maker of fighting grade armour apart from another(are you vendors/makers hearing me <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" /> ?)

The gauntlets made by Mac are very nice and they have served me very well although I do need to spring for some new gloves to have sewn in.The existing ones are almost worn out now! This man makes very nice martial-arts gauntles!
All in all,he did a good job at a good price.I am largely happy. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

[Shane Smith]

We need a pic of your harness Casper! I'd love to see it!

[CoreyGray]

I remember reading that full plate wasn't allowed in full-contact sparring with the padded weapons because the armor's edges chew up the weapons. How do wasters hold up against full plate?

[Shane Smith]

Well,you must remember that there is little to no chopping done in historically-accurate combat with swords between two armoured Swordsmen. Armour simply does not cut under the blow of a sword for the most part. The usual manner of attack with the half-sword is to thrust through vulnerable areas with the point combined with levers and throws to set up same. Wasters work reasonably well for modest historically-accurate armoured drilling but they will not stand up to any sort of cleaving attack into armour or rimmed shields.They splinter immediately. The other major downside to armoured work with a waster is that the waster is not flexible as is a steel sword. That will lead to a false understanding and application of levering motions.For the most part,it is far easier to lever and opponent with the swords edge as opposed to it's comparatively flexible flat(This applies to true anti-armour blades such as the DT 2143 as well). That is not readily apparent with wooden wasters. All that said,we do use wasters to introduce new Swordsmen to armoured combat as it is much safer for all involved.Even blunt steel can skewer you. <img src="/forum/images/icons/shocked.gif" alt="" />

If you mean to query as to whether padded weapons are compatible with plate armour,I would only say that I do not recommend practicing unarmoured-style techniques while clad in armour unless only you are in armour.To do otherwise will give a false understanding of the applications and times I'm afraid. Unarmoured combat is best practised unarmoured <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

[Casper Bradak]

I'll post a pic when I can, but unfotunately I don't wear it much as I think I'm the only ARMA member in utah with enough armour to train in <img src="/forum/images/icons/frown.gif" alt="" /> but it's one of my favourite subjects. Another downside to my armour (as opposed to mid 14th c style) is that I need a lot of help to put it on!
I whole heartedly agree with your last post, using armour for training in unarmoured techniques is a big pet peeve of mine, and I think it's a big contribution to misunderstanding of these arts.