Body Type and Fighting Style

[Jake_Norwood]

There are other advantages to a longer weapon as well: range, leverage, more access to half-swording techniques, fighting armored opponents, and the fact that it still doesn't preclude the use of the off-hand and grappling techniques.

I've spent a lot of time working C&T, so for me this isn't "a big honkin' weapon thing," or an "american thing" (I assume no insult was intended by that, BTW, but it took effort to do so). It's a myth that the greatsword is somehow slower than a real-weighted saber. Leverage and experience prove otherwise. A properly weighted single-handed sword is always at the disadvantage to a longer two-handed weapon on grouds of range, leverage, and multiplicity of techiniques. It is also true that a buckler can change that around--and that *is* one of the true advantages of a single-handed sword. All that being said, I maintain that if you feel a greatsword is swinging you on account of your strength, then a realistically weighted single-handed sword would swing you even more, as it requires more strength in the forearm and shoulder especially.

Of course I'm writing this with the assumption that you're interested in weapons from the rennaissance and before. If you're talking about the little duelling sabers that are now carried by the US Military (for example) as dress swords, then we're not even talking about the same thing. Such small-swords-turned-sabers are capable only of thrusts and small lacerations--usually not enough to tell your opponent that he's wounded. A saber from say, Poland or Hungary, or even the Civil war, will be broader, heavier, and meaner than the 1-pound swords you practice with.

I hope my tone isn't coming off wrong here (the internet is bad for that), but this has all gotten a little overblown from the original issue, which was that you feel that a greatsword swings you around. The error, I've tried to prove, lies in either the tool, your footwork, or both--not in the inherent qualities of the greatsword. You're welcome, of course, to say that "I prefer single handed swords because that's just my style," but my original impression was that you felt at a disadavantage with a greatsword, and I wanted to help you overcome that. Now I feel more that it just isn't "your style."

Jake

[Patrick Hardin]

Carlo, I would say that if the bigger sword swings you, then it is an issue with the way you cut. If you overextend your body in a cut, any weapon can carry you with it, and especially a two-handed one. If I recall correctly, you said you are not a tall person. I'm just speculating here, but might that mean that to compensate for your height, you have to extend more to land a blow? Again, I'm just speculating, but I just had a workshop with JC, and he remarked on how my back foot leaves the ground when I pass forward to cut. After thinking this through, we kind of concluded that it was an issue of overextension, due to underdeveloped range perception. I'm not tall either, at 5' 10" and I sometimes have to step a bit farther to reach larger opponents. If I overextend myself enough, the weapon can carry me with it in a strong blow. Just something to consider.

Patrick Hardin

[Guest]

I meant no insult to you or Americans (I'd be quite stupid if I did it here) but to tell a little joke on us Europeans instead, the matter is that we are lazy ( maybe Germans and Scotts are not) so we opt for the lightest weapon we think can do the job. I repeate: we think... test cutting is not so practiced here and I suspect Italians of the renaissance carried quite light C&T swords, hence the preference for the thrust. In a similar fashion we used to employ 32 pistols for defence, while it's arguable that the calibre isn't a good stopper, but we know it because Americans pointed it out.
So the point is this: while test cutting is a good way to find out what a sword can do, and can help to select the best cutters, it's likely that many of my ancestors carried a sword because it was pretty, light on the belt, handled good and sometimes relied on thier expression of victory after hitting someone to convince him he had been wounded because he might have thought he was not <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />
If it's not so, how can the practice to cut with the wrist be explained? If my ancestors were lazy, why shouldn't I be? <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

As to the great sword matter, I've tried it with entusiasm and will to learn, but I left it and went with something else, determining why I failed can be useful but I'm not sure I'll restart practicing.

[Guest]

Ok, lets get back to the topic of how your the way you're built influences the way you handle a sword.
Me and greatsword do not go toghether, this is what happened to me some five years ago, feel free to laugh... but do not feel free to tell it everyone <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />
During a greatsword "duel" I cocked a strong fendente that I eventually shot out, being more or less unable to control a weapon of that weight, I SLAMMED THE POMMEL IN MY BLADDER while the cut missed my opponent and reached the ground, I stood there with a red face while my opponent collapsed on the ground laughing, still standing in that sorry position I started to machinegun obscenities of any conceivable kind. My opponent tried to regain on his feet when he noticed my shadow that was that of a small man with both hands resting on something enormous protruding from between his legs and restarted laughing, me still cursing like a demon, at this point my dog and those of the neighbourhood joined the mess howling... <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

No it's not my style, and yes it is because of my body shape.

Six month after that I was sparring with the same guy who had the same weapon, but I had a C&amp;T with which I had been training religiously for a while, he made some committed strikes that I parried retreating untill I reached the entrance of my garage, at this point he let out his last blow which I had calculated would have stopped on the roof of the garage and so did, so I stepped under it and sliced his belly.

Now I hope you do not mind if I resort to houmorous tales to make my points, and I hope you understand that my houmor is always directed to myself. These cases not only are absolutely true but teach a lot too.

[Guest]

i kinda have an unusual build, i am 6'8' and weigh 140 lbs, not only that but i am left handed so all this adds an advantage because people arent use to it, i tend to stand back and wait for my opponent, but i cant make a real good fight because i tire real easy (being 40 lbs underweight)

[Ryan Ricks]

i'm 5'7" and 115 lbs (140 lbs in armor). my practice partner is my height, probably about 15 - 20 lbs heavier. i haven't really been at this long enough to develop a style. i'm just trying to learn at this point.

i have noticed that the short girl in our group loves kneecapping people (sword and shield).

ryan

[Donald Lepping]

I am 6'4" and 250 pounds. I train with four people that are all right at 5'10" to 6'0" tall. I am, at this point their "teacher"-I think I prefer the term "informant".. "teacher" implies I'm on a completely different level of understanding. Anyways, they at first were shocked at how often they would misjudge my reach, especially when passing towards them in an attack. This initial cautiousness and awareness of proper distance when dealing with me has sort of worn off now, much to my chagrin. They have realized that in order to be "safe" in distance they have to move farther away from me; thus it takes longer, and so they often abandon the notion of finding a safe distance and instead sit in close to me, trying to use their own distance gauged off of their own reach and time. So now I am stuck always dealing with slightly smaller, slightly faster opponents that crowd me constantly. I can still overwhelm with the slight difference in power, reach and leverage, but the easy path has sort of been robbed from me. I brought this on myself-that will teach me to teach. <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

[Joachim Nilsson]

If they crowd you, close the distance and use ringen am swert and take-downs. Use your size to your advantage.

[JeanryChandler]

I was thinking about that as I was reading the other posts, it's funny to see big guys fighting kind of timid.

I'm probably the fattest and most out of shape martial artists ever to try anything other than sumo wrestling. Maybe my background of streetfighting has taught me to use my size as a tool. I remember actually being pleased the first time I ever knocked somebody out with one punch. That was when I weighed about 250. Now I'm a deplorable 5' 9" and 380 lbs. Needless to say, at that weight, size is much more of a disadvantage than an advantage, but to the extent that I can, I try to maximize the advantages I do have in strength and mass.

Which leads to a rather funny fighting style for somebody so out of shape. I tend to fight very, very aggressive and I'm basically running the whole time. I hate to wait for the opponent to line up a perfect long range 'sharp shooter' attack on me, so I tend to attack, keep pressing the attack.

People quickly figure this out, so practically all of my bouts end up with me chasing and my opponent backpedaling... even when my opponent is a better fencer, and often even when they have a shorter weapon. When I lose I usually lose from the first strike. Once I am mixing it up, I find that I can often "get inside their rhythm", if you will, and seem to have a knack for finding openings. I think the intimidation factor of size helps with this though, and I definatey rely on my strength to beat my opponents weapon aside and dominate them with a rain of blows as much as possible.

This is kind of uncool, but in serious matches, because I'm striking as fast as possible, I tend to strike very hard. I have a bad rep for that. People I've sparred with even once know this and I think it adds to hesitancy with a lot of less experienced fighters... fear of pain.

The biggest downside for me is that I get exhausted very quickly, usually maybe 10 bouts and then, I have to change tactics and become much more defensive and reactive, because I simply no longer have the energy to charge and chase. In a miltary battlefield situation this would be a problem!

I used to fight mostly with sword and shield, which was perfect for this attack style, but now that I've been starting to feel much more confident with longsword, I find it works much the same way. With the false edge cuts (which I have practiced since first seeing tem at Jakes meyer class at SK) especially, the option of attacking constantly from ever changing directoins, and always being ready to pounce on that opening remain true.

Two other things, I try to start my 'infamous' bulls-charge a lot of time when I sense some momentary indecisiveness in my opponent, like when they are changing guards, hesitate from moving forward or backward, or seem to be considering a feint or a committed attack ... or when I think I have them faked out as per the 'what you look at thread'. If you charge when someone is in this indecisive mode, it seems easier to sieze and hold the initiative.


JR

[Donald Lepping]

Thanks Joachim,

Yes, when we free-spar I do. Mainly now I am still working on teaching them basics-so for now I have to live the crowding.

[JeanryChandler]

One comment to carlo, I don't mean to seem like another yank ganging up (being from New Orleans, and born of European parents, I probably have more in common with you culturally than with most Anglo-Americans)

I respect your experience and your love of the cut-and-thrust sword. I had a lot of sparring experience and long felt that I had found the perfect weapon combination with the 'viking' sword (a very light cutting weapon) and a medium sized roundshield. I had tried the longsword in various forms, but was not impressed with the weapon. I'd even studied the fechtbuchs a bit and found some use from the guards, but basically still lacked enthusiasm for two handed swords.

Once I witnessed correct fechbtuch techniques in real life however, and once I sparred with some competent longsword fighters, a glimmer of light opened up which has now dawned very intensely. I now think the longsword, while one of the harder weapons to achieve mastery of (or even true competence) is ultimately the most versatile and dangerous weapon in the Western arsenal, hands down. At the risk of seeming presumptuous, and only on the basis of your posts here, I would venture to suggest that if you found someone who truly understood even a few of the basic longsword techniques of the masters, you might also change your opinion.

Finally, I've been doing a lot of in depth research on medieval and renaissance European weapons for a book, and I thought i could chime in a bit on the weights. It sounds like the greatsword you were using was grossly overweight.

Many bastard swords and some long swords could weigh as litle as 1 kilo. Greatswords probably ranged from around 1. 2 kilo to 1.6 kilograms. Even the largest five to six foot two handers of Germany and the British Isles (Scotland and Ireland) never weighed more than about 5 pounds, as far as I can determine. Most probably weighed around 3 and a half.

By the way though, I do think some American weapon collectors, especially some with less actual sparring experience, tend to go for 'super cutting weapons' with massive 'blade presence' over nimbleness in combat. For me, I'd much rather have a 2 and a three quarters pound bastard with superb balance that I can cut rings around my opponent with and get the first hit (probably the first three hits) with, than some giant hacking blade-heavy monstrosity which can cut a man in half. What is the use of it in the hands of my enemy if I have already clipped his hamstring or opened his abdomen, or cut his scalp halfway off with my nimble little bastard sword with a nice 4" from the guard balance point....?

JR

[JeanryChandler]

One other thought about being a big guy. I've noticed, that while I'm slower on my feet than just about anybody, and can't for example void too well, I can seem to strike much faster than most of my opponents, and I think this is due to arm and shoulder strength. I think many big guys could strike quite fast if they practice a lot. I could be wrong about that...

JR

[leam hall]

I will echo your issues about sparring endurance, I'm ~6 ft and 258 lbs. I find an proactive fight plan lets me control the tempo and schedule rest moments while my opponent recovers from my attacks.

Also, as I'm really new to this, my ability to "void" my big bod is, um, limited. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" /> So the proactive plan lets me block and pre-strike and not have to try recovering from their attack. With that said, however, I see a need to practice more. Much more...

[Joachim Nilsson]

The other opiton (even when just doing basics) is to utilize guards and techniques that will let you controll the distance and keep them where you want them. Different variants of Pflug and especially Langer Ort is very useful when controlling people who have a knack for crowding. Either that, or get them acquainted with concepts like überlauffen and perhaps even the Meisterhau scheitelhau. If you're a big guy, you probably also have quite long arms that will greatly enhance any techniques or cuts were you come in from above and exploit simple biomechanics like over-reaching them.

Even when doing basics, or perhaps especially when doing basics, it's important to make sure that your students don't acquire bad habits like crowding an opponant who might take advantage of this. Regardless of body type and fighting style, it's important to stress the need for learning to work from different distances. IMHO.

[Karen Rose]

Thanks everybody for some great discussion. It has been a pleasure following this thread along.
I do think body type will influence how a fighter will assess him/herself.....well, if they are smart at any rate. If we are small and wirey, but not particularly strong, or are thickly muscled and not particularly fast, tall, short, longer or shorter limbed.....work it! Find your strengths and capitalize on them. Find your weaknesses and work them to the best of your ability.
I'm 5'7" and have legs and arms that belong to someone 5'4".
Go figure. So I have to find a way to deal with time....as in, distance is time. I'll find a way to work it! <img src="/forum/images/icons/laugh.gif" alt="" />
Karen