"Wait and see" or..."Give them something to see"?

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Scott Anderson
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Re: "Wait and see" or..."Give them something to see"?

Postby Scott Anderson » Mon Apr 19, 2004 10:29 am

i personally think you need to rethink the whole "bigger is slower" concept. i've not seen anything to show me that this is in any way realistic. the fastest people i know are fairly large, and the slowest people i know tend to be smaller than I am (5'8"). I've had friends who were in the neighborhood of 4'8" who could not get as fast as friends who are 6'6" for the life of them, and the ones who are 6'6" just tend to get faster all the time. So i think going on this concept is a dead end when it comes to fighting,

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Re: "Wait and see" or..."Give them something to see"?

Postby Casper Bradak » Mon Apr 19, 2004 12:13 pm

I think it's not a matter of bigger and smaller, but in shape and out of shape, trained and untrained. Often one goes hand in hand with the other, leading people to generalize.
A bigger arm has more mass to get moving than a smaller one, but if that arm is in shape, a good portion of that mass is the muscle and trained nerves to move it, negating any mass difference.
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Shane Smith
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Lost in the translation?

Postby Shane Smith » Mon Apr 19, 2004 12:16 pm

Below is text taken directly from the early English manuscript MS 39564

"A quarter fayre before you deliueryde at ??? hande voydyng baek the ryght fote yth an ??? quarter with both hands. A downryght stroke voydyng bake the lyfte fote standyng styll play 3 rakys lythly ???yng by the elbows with a quarter fayre before you with both handys And yet another with 2 turnes and ??? downright stroke voydyng bake the lyfte fote styll standyng playing smite 3 rakys with a quarter fayre before you And 2 quarters after with 2 turnes. A down rytht stroke setting forth your ryght foot as forward your lyfte with a broken foyne upon the lyfte syde an other on yore ryght syde turnyng yore sworde under yore rythe arm... yore same syde wyth a brokyn foyne uppon yore lyffte syde an other on the ryght syde turnyng yore sword fote the poynt soffte before you uppon the grownde."

Now,I assume that English is the first language for most of us on this forum.Note how confusing the meaning of a few of the odder terms are(or even determining the intended words) for us modern-day English-speaking swordsmen. What are the odds that the source-texts we are working with hold similar difficulties for our friends and fellow scholars that are working through the old archaic German and Italian texts? Could this contribute to the seeming divergence discussed in previous posts? Are the translations possibly colored by the temperments and understanding of the translators?

Consider that even the Holy Bible exists in various forms that vary only in a few words from one-another but even then,the meaning can be drastically altered.There is after all,a great chasm between "Thou shall not kill" as some have it and "Thou shall not murder" as others translate it. The feel and intention of the sentiment is quite different depending on who's translation you're relying on.Could some of the subtleties in the source texts simply be lost in the translation and therefore much of what we think we know is in fact ever open to debate? I fear translation is as much art as science. Could it be that while the Masters of old had more in common tactically that not, that todays scholars are forced to rely on their own reasoning in the absense of battlefield experience as was common when the text were laid down. Could the divergence lie with us,the modern Swordsmen and Scholars who must speculate of necessity?
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Casper Bradak
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Re: Lost in the translation?

Postby Casper Bradak » Mon Apr 19, 2004 12:30 pm

I'm convinced of that. I think there are terms and interpretations we will never KNOW the definite definition of. But, as different modern schools of ancient fence continue to refine their interpretations, who knows which one is closest, but people will be able to see the different methods and choose the one they prefer. There's no saying that 2 or more different interpretations of one original term or technique won't both be valid in principle or combat. It's frustrating not to know for sure the original ideas, but I think by doing what we're doing as best as we can we're continuing the proper tradition.
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Re: "Wait and see" or..."Give them something to se

Postby leam hall » Mon Apr 19, 2004 3:26 pm

Casper, something I *assumed* that I should have stated; "all other things being equal, a larger person is slower than a smaller one." So I fully agree that a large person that trains can be much faster than someone who does not. Not just in overall skill but in muscle reaction times as you noted.

Some texts on nerves:

http://butler.cc.tut.fi/~malmivuo/bem/bembook/02/02.htm
http://www.magres.nottingham.ac.uk/teach/medphys/MEDPHYS4.PDF

I believe the speed of signal transmission is measured in meters per second. This is fairly in line (though a bit denser material) than my biology classes when I was younger.

The question still goes back to generalized differences, and I feel the "average" bears me out. It may not be the sole and only deciding factor, but I do feel it a possible influence.
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Re: Lost in the translation?

Postby Jake_Norwood » Mon Apr 19, 2004 4:18 pm

Hi Shane.

[hijack]
I don't want to derail this thread, but your linguistic/translation example, while there is some validity there, doesn't really work. English is "special" amongst the languages of Europe in how much it has shifted, morphed and changed in the last 1200 years. While reading 12th Century English is impossible for most native English speakers, 12th Century German or Polish (frex) is still quite understandable to a native speaker of either language.

[/hijack]
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Shane Smith
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Re: Lost in the translation?

Postby Shane Smith » Mon Apr 19, 2004 5:55 pm

Thanks for the input Jake.I speak neither Italian nor German so based on all of the heated discusion I see among many of our associates about the proper meaning in context of words and passages in the source-texts,I assumed this must be a universal problem for all of us. What in the world is all of the debate about if a text is only readily translated one way? If it's not the translation,is it the interpretation of the given meaning of the terms in context?Is it none of these things? Do we just like to debate <img src="/forum/images/icons/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />
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Re: "Wait and see" or..."Give them something to se

Postby Ryan Ricks » Mon Apr 19, 2004 6:32 pm

this whole debate brings to mind a theory from international relations:

the offense/defense balance theory states that in any given conflict variables like technology (weapons, and know-how to use them) determine whether the offense or defense has the advantage in any given conflict. this can be measured as which has the greatest marginal utility in terms of dollars, or for our purposes, physical effort.

if medieval longsword combat is seen as offense dominant, a combatant should spend his effort offensively, since that will give him greater marginal utility for his efforts.

so is medieval longsword combat offense or defense dominant? is a combatant more likely to succeed with a quick offense, or is he better off using a defensive counter tactic?

some scholars deny the validity of the o/d balance and insist that military entrepreneurship is what's important, meaning fighting creatively and with ingenuity with the assets at hand in order to defeat your opponents.

so far from most of these posts, it seems like the majority of people here see longsword combat as offense dominant. how then does this help us categorize the fiore vs. lichtenauer debate?

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Craig Peters
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Re: "Wait and see" or..."Give them something to se

Postby Craig Peters » Wed Apr 21, 2004 12:55 am

I don't think we should try to think of longsword combat purely in terms of offense and defense. When we think in these terms, offense implies attacking the adversary, while defense implies protecting oneself from the adversary. Yet it is clear in the Liechtenauer system that the master scorned such defensive actions such like simple parries.

Liechtenauer's system does have actions that protect one's self, such as the meisterhau. But what makes the responses "meisterhau", rather than just "hau", is that they both defend and counterattack simaltaneously. By introducing the dichotomy between the terms "offense" and "defense", we misunderstand the one of the major subtle nuances of the German system, wherein defense is also offense. Some might consider this to be a minor semantic difference, but I think it is important for clarity of understanding to avoid thinking in black and white "offensive" and "defensive" terms.

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Re: "Wait and see" or..."Give them something to se

Postby Jake_Norwood » Wed Apr 21, 2004 3:55 pm

Well said, Craig. In the German stuff, at least, offense and defense are the same thing.

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Re: Lost in the translation?

Postby James_Knowles » Mon Apr 26, 2004 12:29 am

vary only in a few words from one-another but even then,the meaning can be drastically altered. There is after all,a great chasm between "Thou shall not kill" as some have it and "Thou shall not murder" as others translate it.


This IMHO isn't the best example, but it is interesting because it involves two translations for us modern English speakers. There is the Hebrew/LXX Greek to 1611 English, and the translation of 1611 English to modern English.

IMHO Jake's point is important. English has veered drastically over time. However, the drift exists in all languages. The biggest "gotcha" that I run into both in English and Greek are subtle changes in the meanings of words that don't change spelling (or do so trivially).

One example is the 18th century English word "regulated," which means "disciplined" or "trained." This stands in contrast to the modern meaning of "controlled." If a person is not aware of the semantic shift, one can easily come to incorrect conclusions.

This certainly exists in the other languages that haven't drifted as much, but I couldn't speak to the frequency of the shifts. I would guess that it's proportionate.

Could some of the subtleties in the source texts simply be lost in the translation and therefore much of what we think we know is in fact ever open to debate? I fear translation is as much art as science.


Translation is an art. It's not about dictionaries and grammar. If that were true, computers could do it with precision and accuracy. It's about understanding the original ideas, and preserving them as best as is possible across lingustic and cultural boundaries. This takes a lot of practice, and a good understanding of the cultures.

In one conversation I disputed the notion that "some things simply cannot be translated," the example being "the Red, White, and Blue." I immediately provided the Demotic equivalent, "Blue and White." I didn't translate the words, but the ideas and emotions that the phrase "Red, White, and Blue" evoke.

The mistake the person made was assuming that translating consisted of a dictionary lookup. If that were true, then he would be correct because the sequence of three colours would not evoke the patriotic ideas that it carries in American English. However, understanding the ideas, it is simple to translate because every culture (that I know of) has a concise method of conveying the idea of patriotism and pride in one's country.

In the context of the fighting manuals, I believe that the ARMA method is critical because it allows us to obtain an understanding of the topic that cannot be had any other way. If dictionary lookup was the key to translation, then ivory-tower scholars could produce definitive translations that we can all rely on. There are places where ARMA can say with authority that "Mr. ____ is full of s***" because we can demonstrate it. Mr. ____ was simply pontificating from a purely academic viewpoint without handling a sword.

Could it be that while the Masters of old had more in common tactically that not, that todays scholars are forced to rely on their own reasoning in the absense of battlefield experience


Possibly. I also suspect that a problem is that we may misplace the context of the manuals. Technical writing as we know it didn't exist in the Middle Ages and Rennaisance. The specifics with regard to "to wait or not to wait" can be fuzzy to us because of a mismatch between information that we expect to see and information that exists in the manual.
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JeffGentry
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Re: "Wait and see" or..."Give them something to see"?

Postby JeffGentry » Thu Apr 29, 2004 8:41 am

Well thought i would jump on the wagon here, I am new to all the Ren martial art's, but i spent six year's in the U.S Marine Corps and have combat experience, granted it is with modern weapon's. The fact though is the mind set of any warrior in anytime is much diffrent than that of most other's in that you are fighting for your life and it is not a game in a sword fight you need to kill or put down anyone who came at you as quickly and efieciently as possible whether you do it from an offensive or defensive posture dosen't realy matter, iin fact in some case's in a malay you may have to wait and see just because if you go on the offense you may get injured by someone on your side who was trying to give them something to see and did not realize you weren't attaking them, and so strike's at you. But the confidence of any Martial artist is very high if not they don't last long in a fight, and lets not forget that Martial mean's Military so when you discuss Martial art's they are Military art's and they are usualy very confident in there ability to fight win and survive on the Battle field it is what they are training to do. ok i'll climb off my soap box.lol <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />
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