False Edge Meisterhau

[Craig Peters]

I've been trying to figure this out for some time. In the ARMA Medieval terminology webpage, it mentions that the Krumphau is "a downwards curt with the false edge made with crossed or twisted wrists," and the Schielhau is "a downward cut with the false edge at the enemy’s shoulder or neck." I am unclear as to the advantages to using the false edge rather than the true. What would happen if one attempted a true edge schielhau rather than a false one? These questions are probably due to the fact that I still have not seen any of the meisterhau preformed in person... <img src="/forum/images/icons/crazy.gif" alt="" />

[philippewillaume]

Hello craig,
I am not an arma member but since I mostly study ringeck, I though I would have a bash. Here is my take one that.

True edge false edge:
The only time I have seen it define in original text is in meyer, and basically it seems that it is really function of the position of the fingers on the hilt.
See http://schielhau.org/Meyer.p5.html
Of course Meyer is relatively late compared to Dobringer, ringeck and the usual suspects so his understanding may be different from the one before

For the Sheilhaw
It really depend whose original text you follow, but I think what matter is the position you end up in. So you should really end up in a position similar to the one on meyer
http://schielhau.org/Meyer.p11.html , of course the altitude of you hands will depend where his strike was intended to land.
The idea is to be in mechanically strong position so that his strike is deflected and we hit him (shoulder or head according to the original sources. This is achieved because your hands are kind of supported by your body, the angle body handle is very strong as far as collapsing towards you. The same concept is used in the zwerch as well

So, bearing in mind the true edge/false edge we really have to option either you turn the sword or you turn the front hand.
If you turn the front hand well this is technically a short edge according to meyer definition, but this is what used to be the long edge before your front hand started to move.
So I would say it does not really matter if you turn the sword or not as long as you end up in the right position at the end.

I hope I did not confuse you too much.

Philippe

[Jake_Norwood]

Oooh! My favorite stuff!

The krumphau is (dubiously, IMO) depicted with the short edge from the right in Talhoffer. Everywhere else it's shown from the right with the long edge. The ARMA page definition isn't wrong, it's just too narrow.

The Schiller (which has been a topic of great discussion around here in the last months) closes lines of attack that a simple scheitelhau or zornhau doesn't. There seems to have been two ways to perform the schiller back in the day. In Meyer the hilt stays high over the head, and it's really a downward (somewhat diagonal) cut with the short edge from the right starting in Roof guard.

The way that seems to have been preferred earlier is more of a transition from Tag over the Shoulder (or Wrath Guard) into Pflug on the left with the long edge up. This one closes off the lines of attack that come from an opponent striking downwards or thrusting up from pflug.

The choice of edge relies on two things: (1) what's going to get to the available opening fastest? and (2) which edge uses a grip that puts my sword in a position to protect the open line of attack while still offering a viable offense?

Jake

[Mike Cartier]

I was going to say that according to Meyer there already is a Schielhauw with the long or false edge. He describes the Right side glancer and then mentions that its also done from the left side with the long edge. So there is the answer to your question of "what would happen if you did the schielhauw with a long edge"

[philippewillaume]

Hello jack
The krump bugged (and still bug me a little)

It is difficult to have a definition of the krump
The only common denominator I have found so far is that you are striking the hands and you are making a a step to the right.

I think the false edge+ crossed arms+ strike on top is the one VD,lew talks from the schrank (and striking to our left)

Meyer seems to do true edge+crossed arm+stike from below.

Ringeck is trickier
The krumphaw and its pieces
Krump vff behende, wirff den ort vff die hende.
Daß ist, wie du krump solt hawen zu° den henden. Vnd daß stuck tryb also: wenn er dir von deiner[1] rechten sytten mitt ainem obern oder vndern haw zu° der blöss hawet, so spring vsß dem haw mitt dinem rechten fu°ß gegen im wol vff sin lincke sytten; vnd schlach in mitt gecreuzten armen mitt dem ort vff die hende. Vnd das stuck tryb och gen im, wenn er gen dir stant jn der hüt deß ochsen.

Krump out of agility, throw the point to the hands
Glose
That is how the krump is struck to the hand, and this is how to proceed. When he attacks you from your right side with an over or under haw to the opening, so you spring to out of the blow with your right foot against him well to is left side, and strike with the point and crosse/opposed arms to his hands.
And that piece is done towards him as well, when he stands in the guard of the ox
.
The manuscript is very difficult to transcribe so far gecreuzten generally accepted version but it does not look like the gecreutzen used later in the same portion of the document. It can be, getrunzten shortened or split (ie being trutzen a form of truntzen).
Speyer has the exact same glose and used gestreckten= extended
Creuzen means crossed, in opposition or intersected.

ps speyer after that describe the VD/lew one.

Dobringer seem to say it is an oberhaw, throwing the point to the hands all that with the good old good step to the right, (25 v)

So all the bets are on really
<img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

[Shane Smith]

You said "It is difficult to have a definition of the krump
The only common denominator I have found so far is that you are striking the hands and you are making a a step to the right."

It is also permissible to krump against the blade in some circumstances as well.Ringeck says; "If you want to weaken a master, then while he strikes an Oberhau from his right side strike a Krumphau with crossed hands against his sword. When you strike him with the Krumphau against his sword, from the sword immediately strike upwards against his head with the short edge. Or after the Krumphau wind the short edge at his sword and thrust him into the breast."

The application of the krump against the blade has worked well for me in freeplay and we likewise see it in other German works such as the "Codex Wallerstein".

[Mike Cartier]

yeah thats how i do it too Shane. I krumphau according to meyer, which often works well against the blade and then immediatly Kurtzhauw or short strike with the false edge to the brain basket. Its very fast

[philippewillaume]

Yeap you are right, I though we were only speaking about the first piece. Kind of the standard one if you see what I mean: D
(We could even add that you can strike a krump to the body if starting form schrank not to mention the feint)

That being said I do not think that tend to prove one edge or the other (we could even add that you can strike a krump to the boddy if straing form schank)

Actually there is two pieces where you it the blade first in ringeck that is
The first one is the abzetzen via schank
Aber ain stuck vß dem krumphaw.
Krump wer wol setzet mitt schrytten, er vil hew letzet
Daß ist, wie du mitt dem krump haw die obern häw absetzen solt. Daß stuck tryb also: wann er dir von siner rechten sytten oben ein hawet zu° der blosß, so schryt mitt dem rechten fu°ß vff syn lincke sytten über sin schwert mit dem ort (25 v )vff die erden jn die schranckhüte. Das tryb zu° bayden sytten. Och magstu jn vß dem absetzen vff das haupt schlachen.

Another piece of the krump
Krump he who well set aside as he step, He will strike last
That is when you are to set aside (abzetzen) a strike at the top/at the head with the krump. The piece is done like so : when he strikes at the top/head at the opening, so step with the right foot of his left side, with the point at/on/of/to the ground in shcankhut over his sword. That works on either sides and you may strike him to the head from the absetzen.

The second one is the one you mention
IE
Aber ain stuck vsß dem krumhaw.
Haw krump zu° den flechen den maistern, wiltu sy schwechen.
Glosa.
Daß ist, wenn du ainen maister schwechen wilt, so tryb das stuck also: wenn er dir oben einhawt von seiner rechten sytten, so haw krum mit gekreutzten henden gegen sinen haw vff sin schwert.

Another piece of the krump
Strike a krump at the flat of the masters. You will sap them.
That is when you want to weaken a master, so execute the piece like so: when he strikes you at the top/head from his right side, so krump him with crossed/opposed hand against his blow on/at/of his sword.

and that is the rest of the second bit
Aber ain stuck vß dem krumhaw.
Wenn es klutzt oben so stand ab, das will ich loben.
Glosa.
Das ist, wenn du im mitt dem krumphauw vff sin schwert hawst, so schlache vom schwert oben mitt der kurtzen schniden (26 r )bald wider vff, im oben ein zu° dem kopff. Oder windt jm mitt dem krumphaw die kurtzen schnyden an sin schwert vnf stich im zu° der brust.

Another piece of the krump
When it rings so stick it out above, that I will praise
That is when you strike with the krump on/at his sword, strike/fight (schlache =schlacht) the top from/off the sword (vom=von dem) with the short edge directly against/onto (wider or uf are probably assosited to schlagen), making one on his top to the head (xxx einen= xxx machen). Or wind the short edge at his sword during the krump and thrust at his chest.

The first on seems to indicate that the short edge is in contact with the sword of the opponent (as per ringeck definion of the schank)
However the second option seems to indicate that the short edge is on top hence the striking and winding with it. Beside that makes striking the flat of the master a tad less contrived: p

What do you think?

[Craig Peters]

Shane,

Can you krump against the blade effectively with wasters? I would think it's the sort of technique that's mostly limited to blunt steel weapons for practice, but I could be wrong.

[Shane Smith]

Hi Craig,

The krump against the blade with wasters is a bit more "bouncy" than it is with steel but it remains effective. Here in VAB we are certain to train with all four of the weapons however so any false-understanding is largely avoided in that way.

[Jake_Norwood]

Man, I gotta be honest here, I don't see where the difficulty is. Krumping is pretty straightforward once you begin practicing it according to the various interpretations. I do it all the time against wasters, blunts, even padded sparring swords...it's one of the hardest cuts for me to "get wrong."

So, what's the part that's messin' everyone up? Maybe I can help...?

Jake

[Matt Shields]

Jake,

Until I took your advice in an earlier post, (taking Kraumphau to the pell for a few hours) I was mainly confused by the combination of footwork and body mechanics. I had to reread the section in David Lindhom and Peter Svards book a couple times to even understand what I was doing. Then the pell taught me why I was doing it.
I think it gives people trouble simply because It's a quick jab with unique body mechanics.

I still am a bit confused about the thumb placement though.
You only place your thumb along the ricasso when using the true edge right?

[Jake_Norwood]

I still am a bit confused about the thumb placement though.
You only place your thumb along the ricasso when using the true edge right?

Yes, if you're referring to a Krump from the right. In truth, though, I don't buy into Talhoffer's Krump being short edge. I think it's long edge, and he's just using the "thumb grip" without the thumb, as I often find myself doing.

Is anyone aware of any place other than Talhoffer where the Krump is shown or described with the short edge from the right?

Jake

[Arthur D Colver]

Craig,
Here is my two cents on Krumphau vs. Shielhau (or Schiller)
We'll start with one use of Krumphau:
Stand in pflug. Imagine your opponent throwing a zornhau from over his right shoulder to your upper left blossen. use Krumphau to in des fechten his blow. From pflug your point rotates back toward you and counter clockwise to your left "over the top" to strike his blade with the short edge and displace his sword down towards the ground, you should end up in shrankhut on the left point down, hilt up, wrists crossed. From this position the easy/obvious follow-up is a true edge cut to his head/neck. You could throw this as a zornhau, in which case the follow up would be a false edge cut to head/neck. The advantage to krump vs zorn is the follow up is true edge and therefore more powerful.

Now for Shiller (shielhau):
stand in pflug, imagine the same zornhau from over his right shoulder to your upper left blossen. Use shielhau to indes fechten. Rotate the sword clockwise around it's axis by twisting your right wrist clockwise and rolling the sword over so the short edge is facing downward. The sword will still be in much the same postion as pflug, just short edge down and right wrist cranked. You can shift your right hand slightly (ease off a bit) and place your right thumb against the flat of the blade (this sounds harder than is actually is, a simple rotate "under" and to left pflug from right pflug as you slide your thumb to the flat effects the same thing). From this position you indes fechten and strike his blade downward using your body to power the blow, keeping the hilt somewhat down and the point somewhat up (don't rotate the blade with your wrists). from this position the natural follow up is a thrust to head/neck.

Both krump and shiel use false edge with downward "cuts" but they get to the false edge differently and leave you in rather different positions from which to exploit and follow up. Krump leads to true edge cut, Shiel leads to thrust; depends on what your oppponent is wearing as to which is more effective.

Both Krump and shiel have other uses,but hopefully this gives you a basic understanding of how they differ.

Again My two cents
Arthur