European Steel Making

[Guest]

Hi, new to the forum. I'm curious...I've heard people say European Steel Making wasn't up to the standards of the Moors or Orient. Yet, I've also heard people say there's no difference. Does anyone know anythnig about it? Thanks in advance.

[Casper Bradak]

Hi and welcome. This question is mostly off the topic of this forum and an entirely different field of study. Sorry I don't know where to reference you for more information, but there's plenty of evidence the people of the near east often preferred european steel, and eqipment made from it was "metalurgically superior", and the western industrial revolution was largely due to/about steel.

[Matt Shields]

I've heard a great deal on how horribly poor the quality of native Japanese steel is, I beleive it's called something along the lines of Tamahamange (excuse the conjecture.)

I suggest bringing this question to the MyArmoury Forum. The users are knowledgeable, and more importantly, honest.

You may want to note that a good ammount of high end modern Katana reproductions use Swedish Powder Steel. And take another note that Japanese Shoguns imported their armour from Europe. But I'm sure you'll hear a different (fabricated) story on a Samurai/Japanese Martial Arts forum.

And the Western Industrial Revolution had more to do with the mass production of steel, rather than the quality of it.

[Matt Shields]

Also,

A couple months ago I accidently found a forum where this exact issue was being argued between a group of Anime/Kenjitsu fans and an ARMA member. After dicounting a great deal of pure lies, the debate went far to the side of European steel being superior, until the moderator threatened to ban that member. Perhaps whoever was using the name... I beleive, Mooncallercat can direct you to it (I lack the Iron-Will required to search through Knight Vs. Samurai debates.)

[Guest]

Thanks for everything so far, Casper and Matt. Don't where I'll run into this Mooncallercat, though...In the meantime, I'll just check the forum yuou reccomended.

[Shane Smith]

This thread was almost completely off-topic for this forum initially but as it has begun to run in the direction of European steels use in period armours,I'll let it go for the moment. I would like to refer everyone to the forum rules here; http://www.thearma.org/forum/ .Keep it relevant and on-topic as laid out in the forum rules at the link above or it's gone. Thanks for your cooperation.

Welcome to the forum <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

[Arthur D Colver]

Vikings swords made in the 900 - 1200 era by "masters" have exibited equal quality to swords made by japanese "masters" in the 1200 - 1600 era (based on testing of actual surviving pieces). Given that most (if not all) sword makers used similar methods (conceptually if not technically, i.e. dipping heated iron in wood chips and folding), and given that "good steel" for swords falls into a fairly narrow metalurgical parameters (around 5% carbon plus or minus 2 %), this is not surprising; although, 500 to a 1,000 years ago steelmaking was more of an art form and less of the exact science that todays steelmaking is (thus even work from a "master" could vary widely). Also, certain areas (i.e. Solingen, Germany) were known for producing exceptional quality steel. This is partly due to trace elements (vanadium etc) that naturally occured in the ore and actually yeilded a mild alloy when worked and partly due to a long-standing tradition of steelmaking (techniques being handed down from generation to generation).
A small amount of reading and/or research should serve to debunk the myth of any oreintal superiority,either metalurgical or combative.

[Jeffrey Hull]

Hello! The book "The Celtic Sword" by Radomir Pleiner speaks to how the La Tene Era Celts of the Rhein and Danube were the fathers of European steel and pattern-welding for the making of swords, without need of some other culture "giving" it to them. I suggest this source highly. JH