Historical swordplay in Lord of the Rings???

[JohnDemick]

According to this article in swordforum.com, yes. They creators of the movie said that for the human fighters they made a lot of references to old medieval manuscriplts for their fighting styles.

Here's a quote: (i didnt bother finding all the quotes)
I can very easily foresee a similar cult following for Elf swordplay, in particular. I wanted all of the styles to be "believable" as battlefield fighting arts, which is not to say that human fighters could necessarily employ Elvish swordplay, for example. The Gondorian and Rohirrim fighting arts are reasonably close to historical European models, though again, the intention was not to present the historical truth of, say, Medieval German longsword fencing. Each style had its own aesthetic, and some were better suited to certain physiques, experience levels or temperaments.


What do u guys think? to be honest, i wasnt very impressed with Aragorn's swordplay... although, i guess compared to some other medieval-based movies (god i gag at the crowbar style fighting of Henry the 8th), i guess its an improvement. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

[Ryan Ricks]

aragorn vs. the ring wraiths i thought was your typical hollywood edge hacking from the elbow. pretty sorry if you ask me.

when they were practicing with boromir just out of rivendell was also a good bit of edge hacking.

aragorn vs. the undead king in the paths of the dead he also did a cheesy edge-hack block.

gandalf seemed to do a bunch of weird spinning around.

really the only thing i liked about LOTR swordwise is that you didn't really see too much cheesy drawn-out duels. aragorn vs. the uruk hai at the end of the fellowship didn't strike me as that offensive.

ryan

[Steve Thurston]

Yeah! I know what you mean.

I would have expected better with John Howe being involved.

Steve

[Randall Pleasant]

We have to remember that edge-hacking is still considered OK by much of the WMA community. Thus it is easy to see how Hollywood might think they got it right. Until the rest of the WMA community stop hacking their edges we shouldn't expect Hollywood to stop hackign their edges. One Hollywood scene that I love is in The Scorpion King where the king and the other guy hit their swords together edge-on-edge as hard as they could and both blades break. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smirk.gif" alt="" />

[JohnDemick]

Hey, if you compare the swordplay in Lord of the Rings to the swordplay in the Movie Excalibur, i consider it a huge improvement. hahaha (did anyone see the way Arthur was holding his sword??, its no wonder so many people have such a bad misconception of knights)

[Casper Bradak]

Hehe I think the armour in that movie hurt WMA more than the swords.....

[Ryan Ricks]

this baffles me. I think Mr. Clements articulates the edge-to-flat argument about as well as possible. it seems like anyone who'd try edge on flat would immediately see the utility it offers.

once at a renaissance festival, a guy working at this sword booth showed us his personal sword. it was some kind of a-historical really thick bladed thing. furthermore, it had gashes almost half an inch deep in the blade from edge hacking. that was sort of an epiphany where i realized what most people thought about WMA had to be incorrect.

[Arthur D Colver]

I watched one of the "Making of" segments where they talk about how 'genius' their swordmaker was to embed the tang in urethane within the handle to absorb the 'shock of combat' or somesuch... and how they didn't break a single prop-sword during the whole movie and how they had 6 of each sword made because you always break several while filming... and the whole time I'm thinking,"well, if you would just use the swords properly you wouldn't have the problem in the first place."

Am I the only one who winces everytime Aragorn (or anyone) performs an edge-block or do you guys do it too?

<edited for gramar>

[JeffGentry]

well i have not been doing this long but have loved edged weapon's and thing's since i was a kid(mom say's i was born in the wrong time) but i figured out a long time ago that is not good to go edge to edge whether it be a tactical fighting knife or a sword a dull knife of any kind is pretty useless and a dull sword would be even worse so these "professional" fight director's should be a little more knowledgable.

[Ryan Ricks]

yeah i certainly do. it was pretty irritating that something as good as LOTR is screwed up by bad swording. i guess this is the price we pay for studying the historical stuff.

furthermore, my sister's store has one of the United Cutlery licensed replicas of narsil. it's pretty crappy. i'd say the whole thing weights about 6 or 7 lbs. the blade is way too thick. incidentally, the pakistani knock-offs which they also have at the store seem to be much better swords. they have thin, well tempered and light weight blades. although they're stainless steel and have rat-tail tangs, they're not bad. i have one which i welded a proper tang on, sharpened, and now use for less experienced people to test cut with. it holds an edge nicely.

ryan

[Matt Shields]

i'd say the whole thing weights about 6 or 7 lbs. the blade is way too thick

I think they do that because people expect Longswords to be thick and extremely heavy.

now use for less experienced people to test cut with

But I've also heard that that started as a saftey precaution after some injurys with inexperienced (obviously) people trying to cut with them. I myself fell victim to the Last Legend Ranger Battle Sword (ashamed shudder.) I wouldn't recommend attempting to cut with that fine specimen either.

[Roger Soucy]

We have to remember that edge-hacking is still considered OK by much of the WMA community.

This couldn't be more true. In my quest to find a group that knows what they're doing, I briefly joined the SAFD (Society of American Fight Directors) a stage fighting group.

In one seminar I took a Rapier &amp; Dagger "class" and a bastard sword "class" (really it was long sword). I recall in both "classes" one of the first things they said was "All hits are to be done edge to edge." Unfortunately, in that particular group, which I understand turns out many hollywood and ren-faire coreographers, Edge-to-Edge is gospel.

The reasons for this they claim are that it produces a better sound and that unknowledgeable spectators expect edge-on-edge. They don't tell you that Unknowledgeable spectators expect it because it's all they see in movies and faires.

Needless to say I gave up on that group relatively quickly. The only thing I came out of there with were some good wrist and arm warm up excercises, A good sense of how to fall without getting hurt, and some extraordinary lessons on center of gravity. But then, that last came from a 10-year Shaolin Kung-fu student, so I guess I should really thank them.

By the way, Hey, I'm new here, Nice to meet you all. Such a great organization. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

[Guest]

To me, it would seem likely that the UC sword, and most other wallhangers, are as heavy as they are in order to cut costs in the manufacturing progress and propably to make the stainless blade less fragile; why would one want a realistically weighted wallhanger, as they aren't meant to be used for other purposes than wallhanging anyway?


I hope I'm not going to start something horrible by saying this, but it is also worth keeping in mind that many of the later historical manuals taught edge-to-edge...

Best wishes,
Rabbe

[Randall Pleasant]

Rabbe wrote:
...it is also worth keeping in mind that many of the later historical manuals taught edge-to-edge...

Rabbe

It is true that some 18th &amp; 19th century manuals (saber, etc.) do teach edge-to-edge, but these are outside the time period we study. However, non of the Medieval &amp; Renaissance manueal dealing with true cutting swords (rapier not included) teach edge-to-edge.

[Casper Bradak]

And some later manuals taught against it.