Axe fighting please help

[Guest]

Hi everyone i have been watchin your boards for a few months and i am thinking of joining (only thign stopping me is that i liek in FL and i dunno if i can find many to train with me.) but i digres. I am trying to better my axe prowes, and my weapon is a 34 inch long, 3.6 lbs., single bladed beared axe with prong ont eh revers side the blade specs are, 6 3/4 in long 4 1/4 deep, the prong is 1 1/2 in. in diamater and 3 inch long. as of now i am useing a variant of traditional cane fighting utilizing the "hook" of teh beared axe's blade, as of now my weakest areas are when recovering from a low strike to my left leg, after a power slash to the upper torso (armpit-just below the jawline), and, of course, fighting a rapier/shield man. I also have some self taught short sword (thrusting sword not slashing), shamshir and indian buckler, and i have focused extensivly on teh buckler/small shield as an offensive weapon. Any help you all are able to offer would be most welcome.

[Ryan Ricks]

a low strike to your left leg? you're standing left leg forward i guess?

i'm guessing this is a two-hand axe you're using? i don't have a tape measure, and i'm not visualizing 34 inches at the moment.

here's how i deal with it using sword and shield:

if the strike is coming pretty low down to your left leg, like say below the calf, you can always just lift your leg up at the last minute so the attack misses. then you can counter at the same time.

another option is to pass backwards a full step with your left leg so that the strike misses. as the attack goes by, you can use your axe to hook, strike, etc.

these methods seem to be much better than trying to block with a shield or something.

ryan

[Guest]

Actually i stand witha forward stance both legs faceing the opponet. Yes i use it 2 handed, i re measured it and it comes to just over 37 in. I fight witha very agressive attack pattern andi find that with my forward stance it gives me more power to my strokes and more control on the returns, but also leaves me weak in the mobility department and slow on the parry /riposet. And i was really wondering how i might over-come a skilled fencer. So far every encounter has left me on the wrong side of the hilt every time.

[JeffGentry]

well from what i have read about mediavel and ren. weapon's the axe was not used often except on horse back and then the mace took over i think you will be hard pressed to do alot of fighting against a sword with an axe for the simple fact it is a chopping weapon and if your feet aren't planted you don't get a good swing initialy against sword and shield you might get one shot but you better be good and quick if it doesn't kill them you won't get a second shot, i know the viking's were adept with throwing there axe's but they didn't use a a primary weapon as far as i know they threw it and drew there sword's but am knew to arma so i may be wrong but i would go to a sword.

[Guest]

Actually, Jeff, the primary weapon of the vikings was neither the axe nor the sword - it was the spear.

But, to answer the original topic (and please remember that my experience with axe-fighting is quite minimal): first, 37 inches seems to me to be a quite a bit too short for two-handed use. You might want to try something a tad longer - something like four or five feet might work better, as the longer shaft will make parries easier in addition to giving more reach and leverage. The famous Dane axe, for example, could often be up to six feet tall.

I don't know how such a technique would work, but if I remember correctly (for some reason, my browser has problems with showing pictures, so I can't verify this right now), many of the axe-wielders in the Bayeaux tapestry actually wield their axes in a "left-handed" fashion; that is, with their right hand below their left hand on the shaft.


Best wishes,
Rabbe

[JeffGentry]

well Knew i was no expert just can't see an axe being a one on one weapon against a sword unless it is very long then it would a halbred of some sort in my mind. lol thank's for the correction. <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Guest]

Or a poleaxe. *g* I hope I did not come across as argumentative in my last post. If I did, it definetely was not intended; that's just something I have a bad tendency to do...

Edit: Oh, and I'm definetely no expert either; what I wrote earlier was mainly based upon my own observations from axe-play and some rather improfessional historical research, which means it is by no means the absolute and only truth...

[Guest]

Let me just say thank you for teh replies any and all info is greatly apreciated. And was it the danes that used the huge axes left handed? I always thought it was the normans. . . hmm learn somethign everyday. 6 feet. . . hmm now that woudl seem more of a pole arm rather than a true axe but teh 5 feet one sounds good for a true 2 hand version and i will definatly have to begin practice with that length and style i had forgoten with the blade on my left side it woudl be VERY hard for a shield man to get his shield to that side and if he did it woudl be easy to knock him down and if he tried to parry it woudl blast thru his parry unless he had a strong arm thank you i belive you may have advanced my training a good 6 weeks with that sugestion! <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" /> but the only reason i have been workin with my shorter version is that i couldnt find any recources for the use of the longer weapon and i therefor adapted what i COULD find in atempt to firstly understand the axe as a weapon and break down its uses and various techniques, and haveing soratic success i might add, but i belive the root of my problem is with the techniques i have been aplying dont mesh with the true properties of teh axe as a weapon with the cane techniques it emphesises defence and evasion more than offense and i belive that may well be the fault of my method.


Or mbey i should just start weilding two 3foot axes and forget about defence all together that way i woulld be staying truer to life.

[Ryan Ricks]

another thing you might try against a thrust:

take your off-hand, and hold it near the axe-head. stand in pflug (left leg leading, end of the axe held down by your hip, with the haft pointing upwards toward the adversary's face)

as the thrust comes in, step backwards with your left leg, and shift the axe from right to left, still with your off-hand hear the top. this will deflect the stab as it comes at you.

once you've displaced it, then you can strike to the head as you normally would.

another option: try a krumphau. stand in your attack position, left leg forward. as the stab comes in, step forward and to the right. this allows you to dodge the stab. as you are stepping, bring your axe down in a sideways manner so that it hits the hands of your attacker. once this is done, you can follow up for the kill.

these are adapted longsword techniques. if you look at the articles and essays page, you can see the fundamental long-sword guards. you might try adapting those to what you're doing.

ryan

[Guest]

<img src="/forum/images/icons/laugh.gif" alt="" /> great idea! i'll have to see what i can adapt for sure thanks

[Jared L. Cass]

"these are adapted longsword techniques. if you look at the articles and essays page, you can see the fundamental long-sword guards. you might try adapting those to what you're doing."

Right on Ryan. It doesn't matter what weapon a fellow is using...the principles are all the same (like foot work, range, timing, ect). Many, many "attack" and "defense" principals of "other" weapons can easly (?) be used to "fill in the blanks" of historical weapons like the dane axe which we don't have a known fechtbuch to work from.

Ragnar, I've played around some with trying to figure out how the dane axe would have been used, too. For me the best "transferable" techniques were the many londsword-halfswording matereal we've got to work with. Combine that with reading and playing around with matereal on polearns and poleaxes and you just might have something.

For a shorter lighter horsmans type axe (your's seems too be somewhere in-between a true two-handed axe and a shorter one handed one...but i'm sure you'll find out some cool stuff to do), I've found that using one of those is like playing tennis <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" /> Your backhand, typical serve, ect. serve to beat attacks asside/down/away... and you can use standard parries and even some of the master strikes. The attack angles are the same as with any weapon and so is the foot work. It's all the same, IMO! It's just a matter of working with what a particular weapon will and will not let you do.

Keep us informed as to what you come up with! <img src="/forum/images/icons/cool.gif" alt="" />

Jared L. Cass, ARMA Associate, Wisconsin

[Mike Sega]

Ragnar,
I will be very interested in hearing what you come up with in your axe work. I have some experience in using axe and shield and am working on creating a useable padded version for sparring. With a shield, the one handed axe is very quick. You are also able to change your hand position on the grip. This allows you to change your reach even during the swing. After a few passes at a short grip, your opponent might believe they have your range. Change your grip further from your axe blade and suddenly you reach your opponent's leg in what he considered a "safe" position. In the sparring I have done with the shield, specifically the axe, I can readily see how most injuries found in graves and battle sites were to the head and lower leg.
More to come as we experiment!

Mike Sega


I

[Steve Thurston]

I think Proff S. Anglo published something in Antiquity Journal some years ago.

If your interested I can find the reference for you!

Steve

[Guest]

wow! if you coudl please give me the referance it woudl be most helpful. And once more thank you to all the people helpin me so far i have made great strides in teh last few days alone that woudl have tanken me weeks to figure out and refine (if at all) it just makes me sad that i didnt find this group of great peoplle sooner:( but your are right about the axe being very swift witha shield but i find that with the right sized buckler that you can use your axe 2 handed and still have a reasonable area of defence just incase a strike comes from an unexpected angle (or another offensive weapon shoudl he bind your haft <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" /> ) but i ran across somethign in a book at a book store up the road. It looked like a curved kite shield but without the handle it seemed to just belt across the neck/shoudler area like a seat belt with another strap crossing the shoulers and back area keepin the shield edge at left shoudler hight and it sorta bend part way arcoss the left shoulder area. And teh figure in teh picture was holding what apeared to be a claymore . It baffled me frankly anyone know what i'm talkin about?

Oh and btw about teh practice ace blade try makeing it regularly but repalce the end inch or so with the very squishy foam and wrap it with duct tape and knock a few hole it in to let out air (not many about 2 to a side shoudl do it) it lessens the force of my impact with the axe blade itsself whiel retaining enough resistance with the taped and perferated foam that they still feel it but its dont bruise (usually). hope that might help.

[Jeffrey Hull]

I would say that your axe weighs too much.

Neither the single-handed hatchets nor the two-handed battle-axes of the huscarl or viking, for example, would have weighed that much.

Remember, it is a thin-bladed plane for the fighting axe, and not a the thick wedge as for the woodsman's axe.

Good luck, JH.