Critical of Sport Fencing

[Roger Soucy]

The USFA has some very nice people... but, they're senile and hopelessly unorganized.

Actually, they seem extremely organized. My request only took a few minutes to get a response to. But please, I will do more looking myself.

Please let me know what division you are ranked in, your location when you were last ranked, and the last competitions you were in.

[Guest]

Please let me know what division you are ranked in, your location when you were last ranked, and the last competitions you were in.

I don't have a state or national ranking. Hence, the reason why I'd said earlier I'm not an expert, I'm only pretty good. And, uh... I'm not exactly sure how I feel about some pissed off ARMA guys knowing about my old club. Granted, I was being nosy about John's credentials, but I'm not portraying myself as an all knowing, all powerful expert than can defeat everyone in combat. Anyway, I'm trying to meet up with Ryan, I'll let him see my old and new USFA card.

[Shane Smith]

Regretably, after hearing from "Sean Fin", I have no choice but to suspend his posting privileges as he refuses to verify his identity. I am left to conclude that he indeed has registered on the ARMA Forum under a false name.That is an automatic disqualifier as explained here ; http://www.thearma.org/forum/

"To participate, all user profiles require a complete first and last legal name, you must identify yourself, no pseudonyms or nicknames. "

I urge all members of this forum as well as every prospective member, to read and understand the forum rules linked to above. This is crucial to the maintenance of an enviroment that is conducive to scholarly debate and research.

[Roger Soucy]

I don't have a state or national ranking. Hence, the reason why I'd said earlier I'm not an expert, I'm only pretty good. And, uh... I'm not exactly sure how I feel about some pissed off ARMA guys knowing about my old club. Granted, I was being nosy about John's credentials, but I'm not portraying myself as an all knowing, all powerful expert than can defeat everyone in combat. Anyway, I'm trying to meet up with Ryan, I'll let him see my old and new USFA card.

1) I am hardly pissed off, just curious.
2) From what I've read, you must compete in order to be rated as a fencer. If I'm wrong on this, point me to the rules stating otherwise.
3) A little piece of cardboard or plastic doesn't prove anything unless verified by the issuing entity.

You have made some pretty grand claims about standards in fencing, and majorities of fencers in particular. You have said things that would lead one to believe you spoke for some high ranked fencers, or at least that you had spoken to them and they agree with you.

I am going to try to go to that NYC event and speak with some fencers there if at all possible. Preferably with some instructors. I welcome any ARMA member who'll be in NYC at the time (6/10/2004-6/13/2004) to come with me. I think I'll suggest it as a study group field trip.

[Guest]

Hi everyone


Some of you know who I am but for those who don’t I’ll just briefly list some of my fencing credentials:
• Former member of the National Fencing Team of Croatia
• Former Provincial Champion of Alberta
• Medal wining fencer in every sport discipline (foil, epee, and saber)

This has been a good discussion, and I’m not sure how much I can add. My hope is that opinions will be changed by the facts presented all around and through clear thinking -- rather than desperate ‘ego stands’ and trying to be right at any or all costs.

Fencing today is indeed a sport and rules and equipment provide the framework for the techniques. Some of the techniques with the real historical weapons are not effective at all in the sport version, or not as effective as they are with lighter sporting weapons. Even lack of historical hilts and quillons modifies techniques and the close-combat situation drastically.

Codified behavior is another problem with stopping the bouts with body contact, rules that do not allow for the change in the line of shoulders (i.e. bringing the left shoulder forward) or the saber rule of not allowing forward cross-over of the legs (including fleche). I think that it should be obvious that sport fencing is not meant to be lethal and could hardly be under any but most impossible circumstances.

Changes to fencing brought about through presiding and use of electrical scoring are significant too –- hence classical fencing and modern style which is removed even more from the old martial aspects. To clarify that –- classical fencing style would have some level of similarity with the small sword from which it originated few centuries agao. Flicks and whips have been mentioned before and they are most definitely part of the skill-set of the world cup athletes.

The world of difference lies in the use of the unarmed hand, ambidextrous use of parrying daggers, cloaks, bucklers or another rapier, kicks and sweeps combined with wrestling, punching using hilts and pommels of the weapon, seizures of the weapon and person and even more things that I can commit to this answer.

Sport fencing and historical martial arts of Europe are altogether different. There are some isolated similarities in the limited areas of the civilian weapons of the renaissance (rapier and later small sword) but that is all.

Again with you and most of the fencers never trying to do any of the western martial arts –- while quite a few of us having exposure to sport fencing (with more or less success) it is probably correct that we are better informed about the sport version than you are about what we do.

Sean – if that is your real name – you sound very young and enthusiastic. Advice I have for your is that your writing style could use finesse sometimes (i.e., “The fencing community is small and swift to react”…etc.) –- and apart from being illegal, it is near funny that as a mere sports fencer you appear to be threatening a bunch of accomplished martial artists assembled on this forum and in this organization.


Best regards

Milan Preticevic
ARMA Calgary
www.swordacademy.com

[Ryan Ricks]

uhm, guys, if i am able to meet up with sean fin, is there anyone around that might be able to go with me? we'd be meeting around the DC area.

i don't mind going alone, but it'd be better to have an ARMA memeber there to see what goes on. that way they can take note of what happens for reporting purposes. that way, whatever happens, no one would just have to take my word for it. also, being almost totally ignorant of sport fencing, i'd have no way to really evaluate his skill level.

ryan

[Brian Hunt]

Hi Milan,

great post! I hear a powerful echo of my own opinions on sport fencing versus proper historical training. Thanks for such a well thought out and well stated analysis on the differences between sport fencing and proper historical martial training. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

Brian Hunt
GFS

[James_Knowles]

So, the short answer is "Yes, the historic lunge did need to be more poweful (sic) to kill efficiently."

<img src="/forum/images/icons/ooo.gif" alt="" /> *stunned silence* <img src="/forum/images/icons/ooo.gif" alt="" />

Soooo... Please tell me I'm not understanding something. The Rennaissance masters fighting no-holds-barred, down-and-dirty combat with their lives on the line... were ignorant wussies that need instruction from modern sports fencers who are lucky to draw blood on a good day... OK... um... I'm having a hard time putting this politely. That is just *too* freaky for reality.

[Jaron Bernstein]

I have no experience with either sport or WMA rapier (just trying to figure out the longsword at the moment) but I am now reading George Silver and I find it interesting that he has several points which bear on this discussion.

1. He seems to be quite critical of "limited" rapier fencing which restrict the use of grabs, hand strikes, blade grabs, foot sweeps and the like. I get the impression that modern sport rapier work has similar restrictions.
2. He seems to suggest that the problem with the rapier is not its lack of offensive capacity, but rather its lack of defensive utility.
3. Regarding the "rib breaking" thing, Silver seems to suggest that even rapier thrusts that are lethal after the fight, don't prevent the guy from killing you and then expiring later on.

Any one with a better understanding of Silver, please feel free to correct me on these items.

I also have a question. In sport fencing, is it permitted to do lateral movement (if so, how much?) or is it only backwards and forwards? A 2 meter wide strip (is this correct?) doesn't seem to allow much space for lateral movement.

[Roger Soucy]

The Rennaissance masters fighting no-holds-barred, down-and-dirty combat with their lives on the line... were ignorant wussies that need instruction from modern sports fencers who are lucky to draw blood on a good day.

Yeah, there's the rub. It's just not possible to conclude that for hundreds of years, people who's very lives were on line if someone knew something they didn't about combat, didn't refine their art to optimum efficiency. As evidenced by sometimes slow and minute changes, to extremely quick and major changes in weapons and armor, these were not people who were afraid of change. I think any technique which was shown to be superior would have been adopted immediately. And it's not like there wasn't experimentation.

Could there be ways to improve these fighting arts? sure. I won't say the masters and their students thought of absolutely everything, and since true combat today may have subtle diferences from hundreds of years ago (like people pumped up on PCP there may be some improvements that could be made. But in any combat like what these people faced. Their techniques just cannot be disputed.

[Ryan Ricks]

hi sean, if you're still reading the forums, re-register under your real name, and i'll still be happy to meet up with you in DC.

[James_Knowles]

[Silver] has several points which bear on this discussion

Well that's piqued my interest. I've not read Silver yet; still rummaging around in the longsword texts.

Thanks for sharing that, Jaron.

[Jaron Bernstein]

I am still trying to learn longsword, but I am reading Silver just for general edification. Besides his interesting old english spelling (no word ever spelled the same way twice <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" /> ), he hates both rapiers and Italians in equal measure. Having never picked up a rapier, I can't say whether his critiques are valid. Maybe others here can. But his stuff on true and false times and the like I find are just as applicable today to my empty hand fighting as it was then to his sword work.

[Steven Engelbach]

Hmmm....Silver and his opinions about the rapier always opens a can of worms.

None of the Italian masters tell you not to use additional techniques (hand grabs, etc.), except that they note that the offhand is rather easy to deceive (so using the hand is good when done correctly, but "hunting" for your opponent's sword is generally a bad idea, not for etiquette reasons, but for reasons of your own safety). In fact, Fabris details a nice technique (the volta di pomo) for using the pommel to strike your opponent.

As to the lack of defensive capability, I have not found this to be true, but as I'm not one of the masters, my findings mean relatively little. However, Fabris, Capo Ferro, et. al. seem to feel that the rapier is quite effective for defense provided you don't forget the fundamentals of rapier theory.

Ahh, the lateral movement argument. Now leaving the Spanish school aside (as I know next to nothing about it) and speaking only from the Italian point of view. Why would rapier be linear? Because linear movement is all you need. You'll notice that none of the techniques of Fabris, Capo Ferro, Giganti, or Alfieri are non-linear (not including the volta/girata, but I'll get to that). After all, what does circling your opponent give you? You merely give him a nice tempo to utilize against you. Ahhh, but you say, "what about the volta/girata?" Well, true, you do take your body off the line of the attack, but you leave your rapier on the line of attack. Thus the girata doesn't make the Italian Rapier non-linear any more than the inquartata makes sport fencing non-linear (of course we can quibble and say anything off the line is non-linear, but I'm looking at the Italian style of thrusting directly at your opponent, as opposed to the Spanish style of "spiralling inward").

One thing I've noticed, is that the rapier masters include the recovery as part of the technique (usually something like: "...ritirarsi con Prestezza in dietro fuori di misura in Guardia.") so they understood that a successful attack does not end danger. In fact, Fabris specifically includes the recovery (safely in guard) as part of the correct execution of a lunge.

Now as to Silver disliking rapier. Well, the rapier vs. shortsword argument won't be settled for a long time (if ever), but I think it really boils down to the battle between long and short. Each has its advantages and disadvatages, given the specific tactical situation. Generally, every argument I've seen between pro-shortsword and pro-rapier has always ended up being a matter of exchanging counter-techniques for given scenarios with no end in sight (with no "ultimate victory").

Steve

I have no experience with either sport or WMA rapier (just trying to figure out the longsword at the moment) but I am now reading George Silver and I find it interesting that he has several points which bear on this discussion.

1. He seems to be quite critical of "limited" rapier fencing which restrict the use of grabs, hand strikes, blade grabs, foot sweeps and the like. I get the impression that modern sport rapier work has similar restrictions.
2. He seems to suggest that the problem with the rapier is not its lack of offensive capacity, but rather its lack of defensive utility.
3. Regarding the "rib breaking" thing, Silver seems to suggest that even rapier thrusts that are lethal after the fight, don't prevent the guy from killing you and then expiring later on.

Any one with a better understanding of Silver, please feel free to correct me on these items.

I also have a question. In sport fencing, is it permitted to do lateral movement (if so, how much?) or is it only backwards and forwards? A 2 meter wide strip (is this correct?) doesn't seem to allow much space for lateral movement.

[Jeffrey Hull]

SF:

It is just this simple:

Swordsmanship is not the same as sport-fencing.

JH