In the process of starting a study group

[Kelten Sivola]

First of an appology for lurking here for so long. I have been overwelmed by all the information here and in the members section.
I am in the process of starting a study group here in northern California. Humboldt County to be exact. My question is, what experiances have any of you had with studying with people that only have boffer experiance? Is it hard for them to grasp the "right way to do it"?
Being a begginer myself I am not sure exactly how to go about this. One thing I can say is through what I have learned here I can without a dout say taht, the methods I have learned here are far more affectice then boffer fighting. I have written up a few ideas as far as a routine goes. i.e. Footwork, stances, cutting, and sparing.
As a possible member/ co-leader of our group is the fencing instructer at HSU, those who frequent SFI may have seen his messages on the upcomming Redwood Rapier Event.

Any advice you all can offer will be tons of help.

Thanks
Kelten Sivola

[GaryGrzybek]

It's difficult to say whether people will take an interest or not. Since they may have already picked up bad habits from simple boffer play it could be a problem getting them to change. Some are just content with beating on each other and have no honest interest in historically based swordplay.

I met a few guys like this a while back and it was a little frustrating. They actually disreguarded some of the primary guards because they felt they had no advantage. I eventually decided not to pursue training with them and they never asked me back so I imagine in their eyes I had nothing to offer them.

My advise is to present them with all the historically accurate material you can and explain why it will work to their advantage. Start with the simple concepts and demonstrate them in your swordplay to show how effective and advantageous they can be. Those who are truely interested will stick around, the others will eventually go away. This will also help weed out the bad ones who will only slow down progress anyway.

I'm sure others will have more detailed advise but this is my humble opinion.

Good luck!

[Tim Merritt]

Kelton,
I just sent you a private message on my experience trying to start a study group in California.

And for anybody running a forum search in the future: California Study Group California Study Group CA CA CA

Contact me if interested in starting something in San Luis Obispo.

[Kelten Sivola]

Thanks for the advice. For the most part those who are intrested seem to be honestly intrested in learning. What I did to spark some intrest was fight against them. They used there hack and slash methods, wile I used what I have learned through my online and solo learning. The majority of them soon realized that what they were doing was far less effective. So I took a few of the more hardcore guys aside and tought them a few basic guards and footwork. They then spared and noticed how much better just a few guards and footwork made them. So I have a few that seem to be all for a serious study group. They have also said there are several others that would be into it, those I have not met yet. I did tell them one thing, If I start a group I will have finall say on who is in it. I will not allow those who are just there to hang out and mess around, nor those who are blatantly unsafe.

Again thanks for the replys

[Jaron Bernstein]

Hi there. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

We (Columbus ARMA) are a young (in WMA training time, if not in years of age <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" /> ) study group of less than 1 year old. We have 5 committed people and have also had the problem of people who show up 2 times and then vanish. We could advertise, but I feel that if we are to "teach" we must first be uber-qualified to do so and our skill levels ain't there yet. So how do you get "good" (committed to the art) people for a new study group that can't offer great training? How do you get people to show up in general and then stay with it?

[Shane Smith]

Excellent questions Jaron! Unfortunately,there are no easy answers although you seemed to hint at the answer to your own query. In my opinion, it is of the utmost importance to be able to drastically out-perform all of the prospective new members of your group on demand and as a rule unless they are perhaps friends of a long time that are willing to learn along with you on a co-equal basis(That's how the original three guys at VAB started...A true band of enthusiastic friends). I say that because if you are presenting yourself to the prospective Swordsman as an instructor(which most interested parties seem to be looking for),you must be completely competent in at least the basics in order to stay ahead of their learning curve,and even then,a wildly talented individual may overtake you one day.That said,by the time they do overtake you,their own path of attainment will have humbled them to the point where it is no longer an important matter weighing on their mind. They are your fellow Swordsman and friend and that is enough.

I for one, was hooked when I trained with the guys from VAB for the first time. I have always enjoyed intense competition that pits my will and skills against those of another(I'm a lapsed local TKD tournament fighter). After engaging in intense fencing with padded weapons with all of the guys from VAB and being SOUNDLY bested(I did well in the drills,I just wasn't good in freeplay), I knew that these guys had something I needed. I further knew that as they had proven their ability to actually DO what they were claiming, that they could teach me if I approached the art with a good attitude.

To my mind, that's what attracts and keeps a good and enthusiastic student/practitoner but then I've always been a "Show me that it works" kind of guy.I think it is important to be able to perform on demand and to best your newer guys on demand while maintaining an environment of good-humoured intensity.At VAB,we train pretty rough and tumble and we introduce new guys to that on their first day but it is ever done with a true sense of brotherhood and humility. It's a fine line I think...Some will be run off for fear of what they experience but then,I feel those people were never fighters in the first place perhaps.Others will experience the overwhelming sensation and be hooked by it...Those folks seem to make for good scholars and martial artists. It's kind of an accellerated evaluation program you could say wherein the prospective student chooses for you. I fear that if you go too easy on the natural martial artists in order to not run off the skittish,that you will succeed in retaining neither.If I must choose,give me stout-hearted fencers.

***Disclaimer***
In the above post, I am neither speaking for ARMA nor ARMA VAB .These are my own thoughts and opinions and some of my own in VAB may well completely disagree with me. If I struck a nerve for anyone,the hatemail comes to me alone <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

[Shane Smith]

"Any advice you all can offer will be tons of help."

Get thee to an ARMA seminar with John Clements. <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Casper Bradak]

Don't let people that show up and then vanish discourage you. There will always be those people. Anyone who's spent time in any kind of martial arts studio knows this. They always outnumber the ones that stay.
Don't worry about not being too qualified to teach either. That's why they're called study groups, not classes. The study group leader may run things, and whoever knows the most may end up teaching all the time, but it's a mutual effort where everyone can contribute and offer their own ideas, and it's a great opportunity to learn how to teach, which may be valuable as you progress.

[leam hall]

To add to the question, how do you build a well balanced session plan? For example, how much time on footwork, on drills, sparring, etc? What do you train in and what do you do?

I've not read everything on the ARMA site yet and I already have too much to do in one session. I'm trying to break it up and have bits to swap out here and there. That said, I'm new to ARMA training so I have a lot to learn.

[Jaron Bernstein]

Hi Shane,

"In my opinion, it is of the utmost importance to be able to drastically out-perform all of the prospective new members of your group on demand and as a rule unless they are perhaps friends of a long time that are willing to learn along with you on a co-equal basis(That's how the original three guys at VAB started...A true band of enthusiastic friends)."

Our group now, with the exception of Jeff McCarl, are not anywhere near that skill level yet.


" I say that because if you are presenting yourself to the prospective Swordsman as an instructor(which most interested parties seem to be looking for),you must be completely competent in at least the basics in order to stay ahead of their learning curve,and even then,a wildly talented individual may overtake you one day.That said,by the time they do overtake you,their own path of attainment will have humbled them to the point where it is no longer an important matter weighing on their mind. They are your fellow Swordsman and friend and that is enough."

Our problem seems to be getting even by word-of-mouth among friends to get people to show up more than once or twice, regardless of our skill levels (or lack of same). Should we advertise on some public signs? I am hesitant to do that unless we clearly make it known that we are a study group and not masters by any stretch. But if we do so, how much interest would there be?

"To my mind, that's what attracts and keeps a good and enthusiastic student/practitoner but then I've always been a "Show me that it works" kind of guy.I think it is important to be able to perform on demand and to best your newer guys on demand while maintaining an environment of good-humoured intensity.At VAB,we train pretty rough and tumble and we introduce new guys to that on their first day but it is ever done with a true sense of brotherhood and humility."

Which is to mind a great training environment, intensity without ego. But my problem is how do we get the people in the door in the first place. I came across ARMA by dumb luck from our group plankholder and only joined as a committed person after watching a John C. demonstration. If it recruitment is only by wit and serendipity, this is fated to remain a very small art.

I don't think that a small art is preferable. If you contrast my other small art (Shuai-Chiao, a grappling style with few US students) with Japanese grappling styles, the Japanese styles have a far larger "pond" of players, which serves them far better than an art consisting of 4 guys here, 2 there and 3 500 miles away.

[Jaron Bernstein]

I work on a college campus and the life cycle of a martial arts club does seem to be like that. At the start of a quarter, 400 (I am am exaggerating) show up and at the end 2 remain. Interestingly enough, an old taiji master told me that much the same thing happened with taiji in China. Many would start learning the 108 step long form and at the end few students would remain to finish it. Which is partially why shorter forms were devised. But my problem here is that how do we get that initial rush? Do we want it? Is there another way to recruit?

[Shane Smith]

Being on a college campus should help you out a bit.

In VAB,we make it a point to train in public places such as the local park. We make sure that everyone is in uniform and that we present a friendly and scholarly image to the occasional passerby while training with high intensity.

Each individual member participates in promoting in our own various ways.One of our guys leaves flyers at a local specialty store that caters to those interested in English heritage and the like.Some of us are on the web learning and sharing on the various forums which brings a degree of visibility as a side-effect to doing something we truly enjoy. Some of our folks spread the word among their friends and aquaintences.We also make it a point to clearly explain to interested parties what we are doing and why. I also highly recommend hosting an ARMA seminar with John to help get a study group kicked into high gear.

Many of those people drop by just to see what we're all about.As said above,if a dozen come out,1 or 2 will stay for the longer haul. Turnover is a very present reality.It has been my experience learning and teaching Asian Martial Arts over the years that only about 20 percent stay more than a year. The more the years countdown,the more attrition. Very few stay to become Instructors themselves.It is too much work and dedication for most. That seems to occur in WMA as well in my opinion so don't let that unduly concern you.

[Joe Fults]

Jaron,

I live in Marysville, Ohio. Several months ago I tried to contact you guys but never got a response. I am interested in your group and would like to learn more about how/when/where you do things.

Has any of your study group ever considered coming to one of the SFI gatherings at the Rose and Thistle over in UA/Grandville? They typically draw a fair number of people with slightly different but similar interests. they typically happen in the winter months for the last few years and end up being great show and tell opportunites at the very least.

Chad Arnow posted on one of the other forums here, at SFI, and at MyArmoury about an Albion show event he is hosting in Cincinnati on July 31. Might be an opportunity to share your vision with some of us.

[JeffGentry]

Hey Joel
I have been attending the group here and typicly we get together on sunday at 6 p.m. at whetstone park the first picnic shelter on the left after the bridge, if you want to join us tommorrow feel free there are only 3 of us. Feel free to join us my e-mail is pyrahnastorm@yahoo.com, if you want to e-mial me.

[Joe Fults]

Jeff,

Nice to hear from you.

I might be able to make it next Sunday. This one is planned.

What are the details of your NTP event? I have no experience and no equipment at this point. Is that OK?