Daggers & such

[Don Roley]

I was wondering if daggers in the medieval age were used for cutting, or were almost exclusivly thrusting instruments.

I ask because I have noticed that the edge does not seem to be used at all in the stuff that I have seen. And today I was reading the Codex Wallerstein and saw that the dagger was sometimes used to stop an downward thrust and the like by hitting the forearm, and then the defender goes on to do some sort of grappling with the attacker still holding his weapon.

If the dagger was sharp at all, I would not expect someone to be able to use their hand that freely after having it run into the edge.

Can anyone give me an example of daggers being used to cut instead of thrust in the fetchbooks?

Also, the book makes mention of the Italian thrust with the dagger(pg 116), and the French thrust (pg 122). The illustrations are of the end result and so you can not tell what the original thrust was and what it looked like. Can anyone give me their opinion?

[Guest]

This depends upon which dagger you are considering. Most of the time in the fechtbucher you are seeing rondel daggers that are specifically designed for combat. They are a thrusting weapon without sharp edges. But in the 1459 Thott version of Talhoffer their is a plate showing a man cutting a leather belt to be used in restraining someone. Obviously this dagger must have an edge. When you look at it closely, the dagger appears to be different than the ones illustrated elsewhere in the same source. This suggests to me the use of a utility dagger with an edge as opposed to the fighting rondel dagger. I think the "italian" and "french" designations may refer to whether you are using a reverse or a forward grip. I would have to check on that though.

Keith

[Guest]

Good question. Yes, most all of the fectbuch techniques show thrusting attacks and the counters to them. Perhaps this is a function of the weapons used and the targets they were employed against. Although some forms of rondels did have a cutting edge, it is primarily a thrusting weapon, devised to find the joints and soft spots between armour. But what about all the unarmoured techniques shown by Fiore and others? Again, think about how the typical man of the 14th and 15h centuries was dressed. A linen shirt with long sleeves, thick, possibly quilted, wool doublet over that, also with long sleeves, and if it were winter, a wool coat as well. Even a pretty sharp edge will have some difficulty slashing through all that wool. If I were in a dagger fight dressed like that, I would probably be willing to take a slash to the arm or body as I grabbed my oppopnent and drove my dagger deep into him.

[Hans Heim]

Hi Don,

in the German manuals I only know two examples for using a cut (Schnitt) against a thrust. This is in the manual of Paulus Kal and the Soloturner Fechtbuch (which is in my eys a copie of the Paulus Kal). The cut is shown in a Oberschnitt a high cut and a Unterschnitt a low cut against the wrist of the attacker. It is clearly aimed at at part that is not protected from clothes.

By,

Hans