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For Historical European Fighting Arts, Weaponry, & Armor

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ksiajdn
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Postby ksiajdn » Wed Jun 02, 2004 5:09 pm

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TimSheetz
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Re: Questions about the long sword.

Postby TimSheetz » Wed Jun 02, 2004 6:47 pm

Hi Fernando, Welcome!

"Head? Shoulders? Hands? Knees? Throat?"

Yes. All of them can be targets.

Also the straight blade makes it particularly effective for thrusts. The whole torso is a target.


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Ryan Ricks
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Re: Questions about the long sword.

Postby Ryan Ricks » Wed Jun 02, 2004 7:07 pm

and don't forget we can smack people in the face with the pommel, and poke them in the eyes with the guard.

longsword attacks are usually made with some kind of footwork stepping forward to attack, or backwards, sideways, or any combination to attack and counter.

i saw this thing on the history channel about "the last samuri" and was it history or hollywood. anyway, a japanese sword expert showed the host a deflecting upward cut which then allows a counter. we do stuff like that too <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

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JeffGentry
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Re: Questions about the long sword.

Postby JeffGentry » Wed Jun 02, 2004 10:41 pm

hey Fernando

Well i am new to this myself but in my reading of asian martial art's (some one correct me if i'm wrong). Usualy in Kenjutsu they concentrate on the sword and don't teach close in fighting/wrestling. In the western martial art's we do go in close and will strike with our gaurd to the face or a pommel to the face or trip you and we learn technique's to do this with sword in hand making everything a weapon and anything a target. As for your instance's there is an amazing cross over of technique it has been a topic of discussion's in a few post on the forum, amazing how "technology" travel's the world even in ancient time's.
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Jaron Bernstein
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Re: Questions about the long sword.

Postby Jaron Bernstein » Wed Jun 02, 2004 11:19 pm

There was a really good article (have a copy at home) in Journal Of Asian Martial Arts a few years ago comparing and contrasting the 2 styles. If you would like send me an e-mail at krovos@hotmail.com and I can send you the date and issue. Also, there are some very good articles on the ARMA site here (John C.'s Samurai vs. Knight is a personal favorite) on that topic.

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Re: Questions about the long sword.

Postby philippewillaume » Thu Jun 03, 2004 11:26 am

hello
I am studying Sigmund ringeck a 15 cent German master.

If It can help here is what I understood of his system

He advises you to strike as you move the same foot forward so if you strike to the you will move you right foot forward. Doing the opposite is not advised (ie striking with the right and strike to the left).
You are to strike with all the force of you body but not like a buffalo.

There is three types of attacks
The cut, which is a chopping cut, a thrust and a Schnitt (sliding of the blade on a boddy part)

The main target are the head and the hands, the body is divided into 4 "openings" right, left, above and below the belt.
Technically you can strike and thrust to the 4 openings. You usually schnitt at the hands/arms or the throat

The legs are targeted with the sword and bucker, you usually try to avoid strike to the lower openings with the long sword due to the uberlauffen
(over reaching) that is that you have a smaller reach when striking at the leg than when striking at the face. This is much less a problem with a bucler since you can cover yourself

You do not parry attack is defence and defence is attack. The emphasis is made on taking initiative by creating a threat (even in defending). So you are always aiming at the man and not the blade and then using fullen (felling) to find the appropriate solution to your opponent reaction should he not have the good grace of being dead already.
One Ringeck to bring them all In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.

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ksiajdn
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Re: Questions about the long sword.

Postby ksiajdn » Thu Jun 03, 2004 4:39 pm

Actually, in Kenjutsu we do train close fighting (it's called Tae tari or Tatari, I'm not sure how to write it). It's just like the normal instance, but you are close to your enemy, and I mean like guard to guard with his sword. You can push him forward with your body (this requires insane amounts of training, but I've seen people throw others far away) and then strike with your sword, or even go back and then strike when you are in a good distance. You can also strike with the tsuka (hold) of the katana at your enemy's forehead or throat when you are too close. Even some Judo or Karate strikes can be used, depending on the situation.

But back to Western Swordsmanship, I've been observing and I noticed that most of the strikes are either vertical or diagonal, but I have one question: When you peform an strike, depending on the instance, how do you execute it? A circular movement? ''Straight line''?
I apologize for my incessant questioning, but as I hold that long sword I just keep thinking about the possibilities.

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Ryan Ricks
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Re: Questions about the long sword.

Postby Ryan Ricks » Thu Jun 03, 2004 7:26 pm

we have vertical rising and falling, horizontal left and right, and diagonal rising and falling. that gives us 8 directions. the cuts are full arm strikes delivered from the shoulder. the blade does move a long a circular path, if you do a full arm cut, and recover to the same guard you started from, that's a circle. or, you can do a cut and end in another guard. even still, the blade travels a long an arc still. thrusts can come from above or below. with sword and shield, you can have some nasty thrusts from the side that come in a round house type way.

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philippewillaume
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Re: Questions about the long sword.

Postby philippewillaume » Fri Jun 04, 2004 5:08 am

Well
If you are talking of the shape of the strike itself
There is two schools like vadi or fiore where you basically strike in the 8 direction that Jay mention

IF you take the lichtanauer school (dobringer, von dantzig, Ringeck, Lew and speyer eventually the author of the Goliath). The author that I am studying is Ringeck. This is the only manual I use to interpret the moves.
There are other possibilities like studying a group of manual that pertains to the same school and find the common denominator or amalgamating different author that does not necessarily belongs to the same school.
All those approach are valid in my opinion so

So in the lichtanauer tradition
You have oberhau and unterhau (strike from above and strike from bellow) they would be typically kind comprised between 0 and 45 degree (transpose that for the unterhaw.

However the latest school is based on five strikes.
The zornhau, The krumphau,The Zwerchaw,The shielhaw and The schietelhaw
Thechnically speacking they are sunset of unterhaw and oberhaw and there is slight variation according between authors or group of authors. They are variation of the trajectory of a straight or circular cut.
The actual cut shape really depends on the interpretation (the problem being that we do not have anybody to show us so we have to guess, however educated that guess is, as best as we can), here is how I do it.

The zhorn
You step forward using a normal step strike a normal unberhau. You strike from the shoulder. You are using your strike to deflect is how and strike him.
So it is a straight plan strike as far as the path of the blade is concerned the angle from the centerline is relatively shallow.
Von Dantzig, lew, speyer version is a straight plan strike but the angle from the centerline is closer to 45° and you aim at the sword.
If you have a more circular movement the 45° strike to the man is more adapted (you still need to capture the centerline so the strike needs to retain the effect of a straight movement.

The krump
The strike come from your right, you get out the strike and send the point to his hands. There is some difference between authors. Some say with crossed hands, with extended hands with hand in opposition.
It thinks it does not really mater basically it is a coma like plan strike with a step outside.

The swerch
This is a strike in the horizontal plan above you head with a step to the side usually used against a verticality cut (the quillons being there to get the opposing blade)
The movement is circular the strike is on rotating plan to end up horizontal

The schiel
This is a strike where you are displacing the centerline to the left. The strike in itself can have a rotation of the blade or changing the grip of the front hand so that you strike with the short edge.
It is a straight movement, the plan of the strike slide from the centerline to the left

The schietel
This is a vertical strike like casting a fishing rod with extended rams. This is vertical, straight plan strike with a straight movement

If your question is about is the movement of the body that goes with the strike like irimi and tenkan or tecnhi.
Ringeck tell us that you need to know when to go against him and let him pass by and that every art has is length and its measure.

So basically he tell use to use circular against straight and straight against circular as one defeat the other.
Ringeck style is about capturing the centerline you can do that by moving his or by moving you body.
To be honest with you I am not sure if it means that every of the 5 strike have a strait version and a circular version or that you should use strikes that accommodates a naturally circular movement like the krump or the swerch which are circular as far as the displacement is concerned.
The zornh and the scheitel being more linear
And the schiel being more transversal
One Ringeck to bring them all In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.

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Craig Peters
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Re: Questions about the long sword.

Postby Craig Peters » Fri Jun 04, 2004 10:18 am

But back to Western Swordsmanship, I've been observing and I noticed that most of the strikes are either vertical or diagonal


Fernando,

When you say "vertical or diagonal" I assume you are referring to strikes that are made from above (oberhau) rather than below (unterhau). If so, I wanted to remark on why you don't see unterhau too often in videos.

First of all, oberhau are naturally more powerful than unterhau, and a swordsman will naturally tend to utilize oberhau because they are instinctive strikes, so unterhau are not the primary form of strike that one faces. Also, the middle strikes (made horizontally) known as mittelhau are not as strong as oberhau, nor are they as instinctual as oberhau, probably because the motion is not quite as natural.

Secondly, in a fight, your most likely to face oberhau, so it's useful to demonstrate voids, closing, and counters against these strikes. Also, due to the nature of oberhau, a maximal number of different counterattacks can be applied against them, so they tend to be the focus of most of the historical manuals on the longsword.

That having been said, there is information on dealing with unterhau, and thrusts, and mittelhau. However, instructions on dealing with the oberhau take precedence due to how commonly they are employed and how many counters can be applied against them.

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Re: Questions about the long sword.

Postby Stacy Clifford » Fri Jun 04, 2004 11:53 am

I'm sure some visual aids would help you understand what everybody is describing here better, so check out our Videos section for starters:

http://www.thearma.org/Videos/Videos.htm
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James_Knowles
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Re: Questions about the long sword.

Postby James_Knowles » Tue Jun 08, 2004 1:24 am

but a question appeared in my mind due to the difference of weight and the ''exotic'' guard type of the long sword:


I don't know how accurate a sword you handled. A longsword should be 1+ to 1.5kg in weight.

In addition to the volumes of information on the ARMA web site, IMHO the Lindholm edition of Ringeck's "Knightly Art of the Longsword" is a great introduction in you're serious about studying the longsword.

If you wish to examine old manuals, there is also the Schielhau web site.
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ARMA Provo, UT


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