When do you stop a bout?

[leam hall]

In two senses. First, when two people are sparring, when do you stop and acknowledge that someone "scored" a sufficient hit? At an incapaciation? Single Fatal blow?

Also, we're in a warm gym; any guidelines on the limit to let people spar before they step out and remove their helm? I'm concerned about heat exhaustion.

[Randall Pleasant]

Leam

Sparring is a major component of the ARMA method of training. Therefore, within your study group make sure that sparring remains a part of training rather than some type of after practice play. In our study group we try to have a least one other person observing a sparring match so as to comment on footwork, technique, distance, blade alignment, etc. If the two people sparring are serious students of the art then they should be acknowledging all hits themselves. It also helps if they don't wear too much protective equipment. While being safe, they should feel a hit well enough to not want to get hit. The other side of this coin is making sure they are perfoming actual cuts rather than playing sword-tag which results in soft taps. I am not saying they should beat each other, safety is always first, but they can not be afraid to hit each other. If it is clear that one of the people sparring is not acknowledging good hits then sparring should be stopped, else safety and training will be compromised.

[GaryGrzybek]

A sufficient strike or thrust should always be aknowledged and then the bout should end. After the bout it is good to sometimes discuss what happened. (Keeping the classroom atmosphere so to speak) If there are others present then they can also comment and add feedback as Randall said. When my study group spars I usually keep watch and make suggestions along the way. I also make sure the fight stays within a certain area away from cars and dangerous objects, ect. If things get out of hand you can shout "halt" and then let them re-engage. If you are in fear of heat exhaustion then it's good to take lot's of water breaks and find some shade.

[John_Clements]

The challenge for students of Renaissance martial arts is to conduct free-play bouting that is historically based and in a manner that is safe but fairly realistic in consideration of the action of real weapons in real combat. So, recall here ARMA’s four time-proven guidelines that we employ as general rules of thumb for our mock-combat fighting practice:

Control = not hitting hard nor too fast to prevent injury, plus not hitting off target

Intent = striking with some degree of force in proper range to ensure actual contact and in a manner that has sufficient motion to simulate the inertia of a real damaging blow

Placement = edge alignment, targeting

Time-on-Target = sufficient interval of time where weapon is on contact in order to simulate the energy that would have impacted or penetrated

Try to apply these and you will solve many concerns.
Relying on these four elements, control, intent, placement, and target-time, to guide how you spar without regard to “scoring” points or “winning”, permits testing yourself against your fellows in order to gauge your skill and progress. In this way you sharpen your perceptions, practice your techniques, and improve your sense of timing and distance.

Additionally, we employ a “three second rule” for any grappling, where unless someone calls “stop!” or “taps out” everyone ceases any holding or seizing actions within roughly three seconds of closure. This helps prevent accidents and injuries during sparring where sudden grappling and wrestling moves can be very dangerous –especially when one party is inexperienced or unprepared.

JC

[leam hall]

Hmm... will try to respond to all in one. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

First, we're pretty good about acknowledging hits, no one really seems "rhino-hide". We use padded swords and require hockey type helms and hockey/lacrosse gloves. Cups are highly recommended. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

One concern was that we were "stopping" too early. An arm cut would hurt the arm but if you never try to keep going even when handicapped you never push yourself into that sort of stuff. Most of the range is not really "up close and personal" because we take the hit and restart. We do also speak up on hits that were the flat of the blade or not really a good blow.

There's always room for improvement and constructive criticism and we're moving that way. One of the hurdles is that the small group (2) is now a more medium group (7) and the (2) never really needed to set things up in a structured learning atmosphere.

We are making progress, though. I'll try to digest the feedback here and raise the main points. We have an almost ideal training area; a former church sanctuary that's now a gym. Really high ceilings, wood floors, and no one getting upset if we bump the paneling!

[Jake_Norwood]

With swordplay we always go to the first clean hit anywhere, acknowledged by the victim. If a hit is questionable, it's ignored. This really only works if you are verbal with your sparring partners--"Kill" or "Hit" when you got whomped, or "Nothing, it's nothing" when you want the hit to be ignored.

With smaller weapons (grappling practice, dagger, shorter swords), sometimes we'll go to a few hits if they're all in the same space of time, or any good hit to the head, torso, wrists, ankles, etc. Because sparring is a training excercise and not (technically) a competitive activity, we try to maximize the use of good principles over "who won."

Jake

[Casper Bradak]

Sometimes here we try to follow up a percieved good hit with a second as a matter of good habit.
Often we don't time out the bouts when we come to grips, but we do decrease the speed down to 1/2 at most, but really that depends on the skills of those sparring.

[GaryGrzybek]

Agreed...

If the strike is questionable I will often continue my attack just to make sure. If the hit is not aknowledged then we can only assume it was ineffective.

Grappling and take downs should be done with caution but I have a problem with being too careful which sometimes gets me killed.

Ask Randall about that one <img src="/forum/images/icons/tongue.gif" alt="" />

[Shane Smith]

"Ask Randall about that one <img src="/forum/images/icons/tongue.gif" alt="" /> "

Well Gary, you DID bring your own dagger to your funeral <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/icons/laugh.gif" alt="" />

[leam hall]

Yeah, there is a definate temptation to use the dagger your opponent places so nicely in your reach!

Once I got tangled up with both our swords locked. However, my opponent had done a better job of it, my blade wasn't going anywhere. Since we had talked about half-swording on the forum I just "borrowed" his sword and it seemed to work! <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

[GaryGrzybek]

LOL...

Yea, I asked Randall to place it on my effigy <img src="/forum/images/icons/tongue.gif" alt="" />

[GaryGrzybek]

It's amazing what kind of things can happen during a fight. I guess that's why we need to be aware of our surroundings even when things get really intense. The ability to exploit all possabilities can help you survive.

[Randall Pleasant]

Gary wrote:
The ability to exploit all possabilities can help you survive.

Especially when a young bull is throwing you to the ground like a rag doll. <img src="/forum/images/icons/crazy.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

[leam hall]

Hmm... We've started to have a monitor for the bouts to help with the flat strikes and give running feedback. The growth of the group has been in newbies like me so we have a lot of opportunities to improve.

However, we don't really "stop" a bout after a hit. We'll acknowledge it and keep going for several minutes at a time. We seem to keep a "learning" score; that is, we count ourselves better if we successfully defend or strike in a way we failed to earlier. The continous bouts (3-5 minutes) give us the chance to immediately try again and keep at it until we either tire or succeed.

Given comments here, including JC's "time on target", I'm starting to think we are not using as much control as we should. Time on target hasn't been a question, more the "You ready?" thing. Like the "Spring" I walked into last week, my opponent could have scratched his initials on the inner rear part of my helm, had it been real. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

[Shane Smith]

It is my understanding that "time on target" applies with wasters and blunts as they are being used with less than maximum intent and speed(This insures against sword-tag-ishness). Padded weapons create their own time on target by way of the blows follow-through at speed with intent.