Help wanted with falchions

[ralph williams]

Please can anybody tell me all they know about falchions. Would somebody know of any contempery sources during the wars of the roses that mention falchions PLEASE??? <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Matt Haupt]

Hmm, I don't know if anyone out there has studied this weapon much yet but I am also most interested to hear about the strengths and weaknesses of this particular type of sword!

Ralph- are you asking about what a falchion IS, or more along the lines of style of fighting and techniques USING a falshion?

[John_Clements]

I have a large article on the history of falchions and related sword types in preparation. Likely it will be the most detailed yet written on the subject. I have a lot of new infor but I've not encountered any specific references to them in the War of the Roses.

JC

[JeanryChandler]

One of the coolest things I ever ran across researching falchons was the conyers falchon, which was supposedly used to slay the Sockburn 'Wyrm' in the 11th century, and has been kept by the local cathedral to commemorate the resulting land grant ever since.

http://bjorn.foxtail.nu/h_conyers_eng.htm

Experts date the weapon to at least the 13th century, making it a remarkably old weapon given the apparently good condition it is in. It was also supposedly the inspiration for Lewis Carrols Jaberwocky, and thus, the Vorpal swords of RPG cliche!

DB

[Allen Johnson]

I only know a few bits. As mentioned there are a few styles. I really like the Thorpe look <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />. They are depicted in dozens of period paintings and seem to be very popular among several era, despite our inability to find many intact. many prescribe this to the idea that they were all used so much to the point where they were useless and either discarded or hammered into something else.

[Derek Gulas]

I've been wondering lately... is there any difference between the falchion and the Messer, or are they basically the same weapon?

Thanks,

[Jake_Norwood]

You will frequently hear the terms used interchangeably. However, I don't believe that they're really even that closely related, much less the same weapon. The Falchion was a battlefield weapon with a pommel, and based on the iconogrophy was probably held like an arming sword.

The messer makes frequent use of the "thumb" grip for short edge cuts, frequently has a "nagel" or sort of third quillon on the cross extending perpendicular to the outside flat, has no pommel per se, and appears to have been a personal defense weapon and a hunting tool.

The blades on the two weapons are similar, however. Falchions that I've seen seem to be more curved and scimitar-like than messers.

Jake

[John_Clements]

Actually, Jake, falchons have straight backs not curved and unlike messers are wider at their last quarter to add weight to a chop.

[Jake_Norwood]

That's interesting, John. I was going off of iconography I've seen in art museums, instead of originals in arms museums. I looked around for some images, but couldn't find any off-hand. I think that I saw many of them in your collection, though.

The point about the wider last quarter is essentially what I am referring to, however. The blade cannot be wider at its last quarter and not curve along the back without jutting forward at the long edge near the point of percussion, which, of course, falchions do not.

Jake

[Casper Bradak]

Hehe you should know better than to classify such weapons by their hilts. I think the hilts vary more by time period than blade form.
I've seen so many falchions in artwork, and several pics of surviving ones that have so many features of true falchions and messers and everything in between, I think many (if not most) of them can be very hard to classify as either/or.
For example, there are illustrations of falchions like the conyers falchon, but with a curve at the last quarter.
Many of the messers in the wallerstein codex are illustrated with a slight curve, also a widening of the last quarter.
There are the remains of obvious falchon style weapons with a slight curve of the back, and cruciform hilted falshions with straight unwidened blades.
Anyway, what do you think they would've called messers outside of germany? I think it's a tough subject to classify subtypes.

[Joachim Nilsson]

Please can anybody tell me all they know about falchions.

You also have this long discussion where Sean and I had a lengthy brainstorming discussion about falchions and messers. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

http://www.thearma.org//forum/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Board=openresearch&amp;Number=2634&amp;page=38&amp;view=collapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;fpart=1

[Jake_Norwood]

Aw, now, Casper, that's not fair. I was actually comparing them primarily by use. The messer was a hunting tool-turned-personal weapon. The Falchion appears to be a war-weapon. And while they both have a cross, the lack of a true pommel on the messer is more than just a little hilt detail.

Jake

[JeanryChandler]

John will your article on falchions be available to the public, or only to ARMA members?

JR

[JeanryChandler]

Aren't Falchions almost always significantly shorter? I've never seen a messer under 36".

DB