Padded swords to be tested

[JeanryChandler]

This certainly makes sense. The idea of shaping the core is a very intriguing concept. As for the rest of it, I know I may seem like a bit of a mad zealot, but having made these things for more than twenty years, and continually improved the designs, I guess I'm eager to share what I think are good results. I do get frustrated to see other people reinvent the wheel, (not that this is happening in this case!)

Acutally, I'm really glad y'all are experimenting with improving padded weapon design, because I think the padded weapons are the key to the continuation of high speed, full contact, full power sparring, which is ultimately the only thing which is going to keep WMA honest in the long run.

I think it would be interesting to try to combine the best aspects of both techniques. Maybe I could trade one of my padded wasters to one of y'all in exchange for one of your shaped cores or something, and see if I can combine them. We might make an uber weapon that can kill ninjas!

JR

[JeanryChandler]

I posted a link a while back to the step by step method I use, it'd be many pages back by now.

The main difference I guess is in the thin but dense foam padding I use for the flats, the sch 80 pvc cores, and probably the way I counterweight the weapons (I use large diameter iron washers) and the way I make the crossguards.

I also use 1/2" cores for weapons under 47", which is made possible by the stronger and more rigid Sch 80 pvc. This contributes to flatter weapons and better edge geometry, IMHO.

Mine hurt though more than boffers or traditional padded weapons, though I thnk they are ultimately less likely to cause serious injury. We have been using them continuously at least twice a month since Southern Knights and I haven't had any injuries yet. A few bruises though!

DB

[JeanryChandler]

the Welch design has a significantly more sword-like flex along the flat without giving any on the edge.

that is really interesting, is that due to the compression they are doing on the core?

DB

[Brian Hunt]

Yes, the compression of the PVC core allows flex along the flats (especially at the weak, yet none at the strong), but there is no flex along the edges. This mimics the way steel acts. I also like not having to attach a bunch of washers to the end of a piece of pvc. It is much nicer to glue a piece of flatstock inside of the core. However it does take some time to heat up and flatten a core.

I really want to thank people for this idea. I now feel I have a safe, but sturdy padded weapon I can play full force with.

Brian Hunt
GFS

[Bill Welch]

If you use a Grill (the one I use is electric) and take two coat hangers(sized to the width of the grill)connected with three pieces of wire(I also use coathanger wire) made to the same length of the grill, and cover the top two sides, and ends with alum. foil and poke big hole in the ends(to allow insurtion of the pvc) it gets hot faster, and stays hot longer. and I can heat 1/2 of the 46 1/2" pvc at one time. So it cuts the time down to heat and squash a PVC core in about 15-20 min all together. <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Brian Hunt]

I built a round tube of aluminum foil and tie wire with a much smaller round tube that connects to my heat gun set at a 90 degree angle to the larger tube connecting in the middle. This also makes an effective pvc forge. It gets hot enough you have to watch that you don't burn the PVC. It takes about 20-30 minutes to squash a longsword core with this setup.

just another way of doing the same thing, making plastic 'plastic' <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

Brian Hunt
GFS

[JeanryChandler]

I also like not having to attach a bunch of washers to the end of a piece of pvc. It is much nicer to glue a piece of flatstock inside of the core. However it does take some time to heat up and flatten a core.

Needless to say, there is nothing from our method here in N.O. that would prevent us from inserting counterweights into the core. In fact we were doing this back in the 1980's before we had even heard of WMA. We used to put railroad spikes in the handles of our weapons so they would handle better (people used to consider it 'cheating'!)

I occasionally actually do use some small carriage bolts under 4" to partially balance a sword today. However my friends and I found over the years that putting a rigid, heavy counterweight inside the PVC core tended to cause it to snap right at the point where the counterweight ended if it was longer than about 4-6 inches.

In the end, I am happy using the washers, they are easy to attatch and form the basis of a pretty nice wheel pommel. Also, in a real sword most of the counterweight is actually provided by the pommel itself.

Even breaking once in a while is too much for me, because I just don't have the bucks to keep shelling out for duct tape. Like I said, my padded wasters don't break. I haven't had one break in over a year, and I hit very, very hard. I'll put my krumphau up against anyones!

Ultimately of course, I don't mind if nobody else sees eye to eye with me on it. I'm glad to use my old method, maybe I'll try to incorporate shaped cores into it. There are many roads to salvation, after all! I'm just sincerely glad to see people continue experimenting.

DB

[ChrisThies]

Thanks Bill &amp; David (&amp; Jeanry) for the formed PVC info. I'd like to make a couple of these prototypes myself to try out. I do have a couple of specific ?'s about material if either of you get a chance. You can PM me if you prefer.
- How/where exactly do you 'gorilla glue' the 24" X 3/4" X 1/8" steel flat to the core? I picked up some PVC &amp; steel flats at the local hardware store, but had to go to Home Despot for some of the other supplies. There I noticed that a 3/8" (black or galvanized) steel "nipple" (a tube threaded at both ends) could be screwed onto an end cap, or a union, etc. (depending upon how heavy/large you'd like the pommel) and loosely inserted into the inner diameter of the 3/4" PVC. I'm not quite sure if it was loose enough to allow for a heat squaring of the handle, but I guess that would be an item of personal preference. Anyway, these "nipples" came in lengths from 1" - 6", and could always be cut down to near nothing if need be. So I was thinking about using a cap (or union, etc.) and nipple combo, and then make a cross cut (with a hack saw) across the inserted opposite end of the nipple to serve as a slot for mounting/glueing the 3/8" steel flat. I didn't buy these components because I was wondering how you guys secured the flat, and if maybe my idea was overkill.
- How/where exactly do you secure the 10" and 6" steel flat pieces that David mentioned above, "on both sides of the hilt and strong to balance and weight"?
- Have you varied the padding any from the 2nd generation instructions found here at ARMA site, or the 'anamoly' site? Specifically the tip?
Thanks for your time.
Chris Thies

[Bill Welch]

I have been putting the whole thing together just screw the end cap on and take the 3/4" steel and lay it on top of the sword and move it back and forth till I get the balance where I want it(usually about 4" from the cross). then unscrew the steel cap, swab the inside of the pipe with PVC cleaner. Then take the two pieces of 3/4" x 1/8" x 24" and cover them with glue and slide them inside to the depth that provides the balance( see previous step) and put up and let dry. I have had some good luck with the glue some bad. But I think that the swabbing the inside with pvc cleaner will help remove the releasing agent that the manufacturers use will make a big dif. <img src="/forum/images/icons/tongue.gif" alt="" />

[Olgierd Pado]

Hi all,

I've got the SCH 40 PVC, and some other materials. Before I have a go at making the padded sword, I would like to ask you a few additional questions:
- what are you using for the end cap - 3/4'' iron pipe cap?
- if you screw the end cap directly onto the PVC pipe (smeared with glue I suppose) does it hold well? No problems with the cap falling off?
- in order to have a good fit you should not squish the end of the pipe, where the cap will be screwed on, correct?
- I cannot get the Landau foam in Poland, and shipping it from overseas is waaay too expensive. So I've decided to use camping mat foam + some thin foam for flats (much like Jeanry's "sandwich" design). Is there anything that I have to be aware of (and that has not been said here), using this kind of foam? What is the minimum edge width?

BTW. I've found out that you may secure both ends of the cross with small plastic pipe caps (same diameter as PVC pipe). They have nice, rounded egdes and save you the effort of smoothing pipe ends. They are inexpensive and usually can be obtained at the same store you get your PVC.

Cheers
Olgierd

[Lance Chan]

I've put up another version of bastard sword/longsword that is longer, heavier. It's modeled after Durer Bastard Sword of A&amp;A and handles like a charm.

http://www.rsw.com.hk/bastardsword.htm#longsword

[GaryGrzybek]

Great Lance!

I've been meaning to post a review for some time but unfortunately my job has distracted me from almost everthing lately. I won't say too much at this time but we were concerned about the light weight and short grips of these sparring weapons. Overall, we are pleased with the design and durability and will provide a detailed response very soon.

[Lance Chan]

Thanks Gary. The reason for the light and short grip of the former version of bastard sword is because it's modeled after my sword, a tinker bastard sword. Tinker's sword tends to be quite light, and mine is particularly shorter than his other model.

So we made another version after a more popular model that fits your taste. We welcome comments and strive to improve with the given direction. However, some improvements may take longer time to implement, while the others are easier to do. For example, after receiving Murray Moore and Tim Merritt's comments, we've replaced the plastic parts on the hilt to metal to make the guard more capable of sustaining lateral damage.

We also tried to fix the guard vertically too but that led to a disaster. With the unexpected chemical reaction, we ended up paying a lot to replace the dozen broken swords (both by replacement and by refund). At the beginning we suspected that they sabotaged the swords intentionally for reversed engineering. However, once we found out the truth, we did everything we could to return them the justice and satisfaction.

Nevertheless, very soon we'll make another attempt to fix it vertically.

So, it may take some time before we could implement all the improvements suggested by your review. I thank you for your opinions, patience and understanding. We did make mistakes before and I can't say we won't be making mistakes in the future... But we'll try our best and thank you to those who have been supporting us since the beginning. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

[ChrisThies]

Thanks for your help &amp; info.
I opted to use the following materials for the inner steel core of my pvc prototypes:
- 3/8" X 6" black steel pipe nipple
- 1/2" X 3/8" pipe reduction coupling
- 3/4" X 36" 12 gauge (1/8") solid steel flat, galvanized finish

I created a tang at one end of the steel flat by cutting off a 1/4" strip 6" long from both sides of one end [a good upper arm workout using a hacksaw!]. I used a file to fine tune my cuts on the tang to ensure a tight fit into the (approximately) 1/2" inner diameter of the pipe nipple. I inserted the two cutout strips into the pipe nipple alongside the tang prior to glueing. The 3/8" X 1/2" pipe reduction coupling is screwed onto the opposite end to act as a pommel, it abutts the pvc handle. The cavity inside this pommel is available for the addition of further balancing material (I'm currently thinking about using lead musketball(s), but I want to find a place that sells them in smaller quantities versus the bulk lots online). The pre-foaming balance point of these prototypes is 8" from the cross. I'm a bit concerned about putting too much counter weight into the pommel, and then finding out the hard way that they'll dent a mask while doing a pommeling technique from the halfsword, etc. So I haven't really decided how much to weigh the pommel. I'm going to foam &amp; tape them today, and then make a decision upon the how much wieght to add to the pommel. I also forgot to file down (round) the tip of the steel flat, as well as place some bright colored tape on it, prior to glueing my inner steel core into the flattened/ovated outer pvc core [if/when the flat breaks free and begins to work its way out the tip of outer foamed pvc core]. So this is already one correction that I'll make on future versions should these prototypes prove worthy of further development [as compared to the current ARMA approved padded weapons].

If I ever figure out how to insert a photo into a forum post such as this (versus a regular email) I may post a picture.

I couldn't square the pvc handle quite as much as I had hoped. I also opted to to flatten the one piece pvc hilt. In a few weeks the finished prototypes will be put to the test by some of Wisconsin's ARMA peers, so we'll see how this version holds up under EXTREME use.