Roman swordsmanship

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Jaron Bernstein
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Re: Roman swordsmanship

Postby Jaron Bernstein » Tue Aug 10, 2004 8:24 pm

"The romans prefered to choose the field of battle that they could use to their advantage, but often there wasn't a general "rule" per se about how a particular enemy was fought. Changes in Roman tactics to a particular enemy were generally reactionary."

Thanks for a very good response. A few follow up questions:

1. If the Roman tactics evolved in reaction to a particular foe, what foe was the gladius/shield/pilum combination in reaction to?

2. I certainly agree with you on the point about a coordinated team being able act as a force multiplier. I was wondering if this particular tactic (gladius/shield/pilum) would work as well in individual combat as it did for formed units?

Any thoughts?

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Alex Kurtzman
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Re: Roman swordsmanship

Postby Alex Kurtzman » Wed Aug 11, 2004 8:57 am

Well, the gladius was stolen from the spaniards around the time of the punic wars, the Romans were not averse to adopting things from other cultures and they found it to be a very effective short sword.

The tower shield the romans used was actually indiginous to the latin peoples, and was pretty much used throughout their history undergoing modifications over time. In the pre republican period, those who could afford it, equiped themselves like greek hoplites with the round shield and spear.

The pulim itself made an appearence in the republican period. The army as described by polybius serves as the model for the republican army. The lightest troops were the velites who were armed with sword, helmet, animal skin, small shield and javelins. They were the dedicated skirmishers. Then where the principes and hastatii, they were armed with an additional breastplate, and the pulim. Behind them were the more heavily armed and generaly more vetran tiarii who were armed with the long spear. I think overall they probably found the rain of pila to be the most effective way to break an enemy since the tiarii fell out of fashion by the later republic.

When I said roman tactics were reactionary, I meant not individual fighting tactics but the overall tactics of an army in battle. The Romans were able to adapt their tactics to meet all sorts of enemy, although guerillas seem to have always been the thorn in their side, as is true with any standing military force.


As for the shiled/gladius/pulim in individual combat, the best example to look to is probably the gladiators. No basic style of gladiator (thracian, myrmillo, hoplomachus, retiarius, etc. )was armed with a pulim or any sort of javelin, this is probably because in single combat they weren't too effective, and a javelin can be caught and thrown back, and nobody wants that. The Roman soldiers did use their javelins as spears at times, especially against cavalry. Most gladiators were armed with some combination of sword and shield. The myrmillo is probably the best example to look like since he was considered to be the gladiator equivleant of the roman legionary. he was armed with the scutum shield and gladius and was more heavily armored than other types of gladiator. I've heard that it's believed they fought facing sideways to hide most of their body behind their shield. The only pole arms used by gladiators were generally the spear or trident. I have no doubt that there were exceptions and the pulim was used in the arena for certain shows, but with the general archetypes. . . it doesn't seem to have been.

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Douglas S
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Re: Roman swordsmanship

Postby Douglas S » Wed Aug 11, 2004 11:35 am

I cannot believe that the Roman soldiers, and those others who relied on it, depended so completely on the big shield that they never developed a technique for fighting with the sword without the shield.
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Alex Kurtzman
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Re: Roman swordsmanship

Postby Alex Kurtzman » Wed Aug 11, 2004 12:22 pm

In all likelyhood they did, unfortunately, this is probably lost to us, because pretty much all the images of roman soldiers training or fighting shows them with a shield. Chances are, that any fighting without the shield wasn't codefied so it was really up to experience and what other soldiers developed on their own. Also there was the pugio (dagger) as a last ditch weapon.

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scott adair
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Re: Roman swordsmanship

Postby scott adair » Wed Aug 11, 2004 7:30 pm

Just a few quick bits I remember from talking to an old cousin of mine who is well read and other unrememberable sources.

1. The pila was developed to help break the charges of the Celts.

2. As far a sword length goes, I heard somewhere that when Rome shortened her swords she lengthened her rule.

3. Also remember something about them wrapping the left arm in a cloak if shields were unavailable(caught by surprise ?). A drawing in "arms and armour of the crusading era" shows a swordsman with a cloak over his left arm. The accompanying text said that such images are common and date back to Roman times.

4. Everything I have read links the gladius to spain, but I have had cause to question this statement. Dan Maragni and I were discussing this and he has read somewhere that this has been refuted recently (journal of roman military studies?). Second hand knowlidge, but I know Dan has done a fair bit of research on swords.

Scott Adair

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JeanryChandler
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Re: Roman swordsmanship

Postby JeanryChandler » Wed Aug 11, 2004 10:14 pm

Thrusting was emphasized over cutting, with the blade turned horizontally to better penetrate ribs. But cutting was still practiced. The broad bladed and relatively heavy sword is ideally suited for it. I read somewhere that the first time the Gladius Hispaniensis was used in combat (I believe against the Macedonians) observers were shocked to see severed limbs of the enemy scattered across the field.

DB
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JeanryChandler
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Re: Roman swordsmanship

Postby JeanryChandler » Wed Aug 11, 2004 10:26 pm

Roman tactics were reactionary, I think that is true. But it took them a while, and often a serious shock to the entire society to really do so. When hard pressed they could be extremely innovative, as in the punic wars when they more or less created a navy practically overnight. On the other hand, they could also make collosal blunders, such as facing determined attackers in a forest at Teutonebourg against the Germans, or against hit and run horse archers tatctics against the Parthains, (the same tactics which seemed to confound western soldiers over and over again through the centuries)

I think the Roman sword was used with the shield predominantly. Even the longr swords back then such as used by the cavalry and by the Celts and Germans seem to have usually been poorly balanced for defense, the hilts and pommels being made of largely non ferrous materials. The better balanced viking type sword which emerged in the later 'dark ages' period was more suitible for fencing sans shield at least in civilian circumstances, but the shield seemed to remain as standard gear for military engagements and even formal duels until cut-and-thrust swords and longswords appeared in the middle ages.

DB
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JeanryChandler
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Re: Roman swordsmanship

Postby JeanryChandler » Wed Aug 11, 2004 10:27 pm

the shield seemed to remain as standard gear for military engagements and even formal duels until cut-and-thrust swords and longswords appeared in the middle ages.


And if you want to know why, try fencing with a short sword or an arming sword against an opponent similarly equipped who also has a shield.

DB
"We can't all be saints"

John Dillinger

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Re: Roman swordsmanship

Postby JeanryChandler » Wed Aug 11, 2004 11:22 pm

As a slight aside, here are a couple of interesting articles,

this one is about the pankration

http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=164

and this one perhaps a bit more relevant about a fencing match in ancient Greece

http://www.swordhistory.com/excerpts/greek.html

DB
"We can't all be saints"

John Dillinger

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Matt Easton
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Re: Roman swordsmanship

Postby Matt Easton » Thu Aug 12, 2004 3:23 am

Hi Jeanry,

"Thrusting was emphasized over cutting, with the blade turned horizontally to better penetrate ribs."

Can I ask what source this is from? I don't remember any sources describing edge alignment, but I'd like to know if there is one.

"The broad bladed and relatively heavy sword is ideally suited for it."

There are different variations of the gladius (the 'Mainz', 'Metz', 'Pompeii' etc) and the later ones were not especially broad. And I certainly would not describe any of them as heavy - having had the pleasure to hold two original blades back when I was still an archaeologist, I can say categorically that they were light.

"I read somewhere that the first time the Gladius Hispaniensis was used in combat (I believe against the Macedonians)"

Hispaniensis means in Indo-European "Spanish sword", Hispan denoting the Spanish peninsula, and Ensis being the pan-Indo-European word for sword. Evidentally the Romans copied the design of the swords of the Hispanic Celts.

Matt

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M_Wallgren
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Re: Roman swordsmanship

Postby M_Wallgren » Thu Aug 12, 2004 3:29 am

There is also the cavallery sword "spada" to mention. How did they use that? Any thoughts
Martin Wallgren, ARMA Gimo, Sweden

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Alex Kurtzman
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Re: Roman swordsmanship

Postby Alex Kurtzman » Thu Aug 12, 2004 6:39 am

the spatha was definitely much more of a slashing weapon, and it also became the standard infantry weapon in the later armor, I'll have something to say about it in a bit.

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Matthew Amt
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Re: Roman swordsmanship

Postby Matthew Amt » Thu Aug 12, 2004 9:26 am

Avete!

"DB" said I should have a look at this discussion. Looks like most everything has been covered pretty well, but maybe I can clarify a couple points.

While the Imperial legions were professionals and better trained and disciplined overall than the armies of the Roman Republic, even the citizen soldiers of the Republic had a reputation for discipline. We're still talking about a period of almost a thousand years, though, so of course there would be changes in equipment and tactics. But a few generalities are no problem.

Vegetius does indeed claim that Romans used thrusting and scorned those who cut with their swords. But we have to bear in mind that he is a relatively late source, and includes a certain amount of opinion and wishful thinking into his treatise. As others have pointed out, some of those swords are excellent cutters and soldiers would certainly use the edge when necessary. Skeletons at Maiden Castle in Britain, for instance, show cut-marks inflicted by Roman attackers. And Polybius says the Macedonians in the 2nd century BC were shocked at how the Roman gladius hispaniensis lopped off arms and heads.

First specific point is that this gladius hispaniensis was indeed adopted from the Spaniards, but it is a rather longer and slimmer blade than we used to think. They ran 25 to 27 inches long by a maximum width (at first) of 2", whereas the late Republican "Mainz" sword--which we USED to think was the hispaniensis--is rarely over 22" long and is generally wider than 2". Both have long points and (often) slightly waisted profiles. You can see a range of Roman swords on my Legio XX site,

http://www.larp.com/legioxx/gladius.html

Roman soldiers were definitely well-trained, with weapon practice and sparring being part of their daily routine. It is again Vegetius who tells us they started by attacking a wooden post using double-weight shields and swords. There is nothing to suggest that they ever trained to fight without shields--for any normal combat they'd have their shields with them. The only time they'd lack them would be for something like a street riot, in which case none of their opponents would have shields, either, and their own well-honed aggressiveness would be all they'd need. There is one account of some of Caesar's men being attacked during a parley, and all they could do to fight their way out was draw their daggers and wrap their cloaks around their left arms. To me that implies a strong desire for a shield!

Constant training and flexible formations meant that they could adapt easily to different opponents and situations. That's what the manipular and cohort systems were all about. The men were drilled to work as a team, backing each other up and offering support whenever necessary. The depth of the formation and the spacing between the men could be varied according to circumstances. The use of the pilum (plural pila) followed by a shield-slam and quick thrusts to face and belly was very effective against opponents who used longer weapons. I got to participate in cutting tests by a Dacian falx, and believe me, you REALLY want to nail that guy with a pilum before he gets a chance to swing! Otherwise, get in so close he can't wind up, at which point you can gut him easily because he can't carry a shield.

Guerrilla warfare is always a problem, but the Romans were surprisingly good at countering it. Most tribal opponents actually couldn't keep such activities up very long because the men all had families and farms to attend to. Burning the villages and farms got rid of the problem. Even mounted raiders in North Africa could be tracked down and eliminated by legionary infantry, because all such raiders had to have a base full of baggage and women. Even in daylight, spotting a couple cohorts a few miles away meant there wasn't enough time to pack up and evacuate. It's a simple matter of good scouting and fast marching. I confess that I don't know enough specifics about Scotland, but the Romans fought more than one victorious campaign through Scotland before Hadrian's Wall was built, and the "Picts" are not mentioned in literature until the next century. Hadrian's Wall and the Antonine Wall were certainly not invincible to heavy attack in the 4th century, but they pretty much eliminated any problem with small groups of raiders sneaking over the border.

Boudicca's revolt, by the way, there was no guerrilla activity, appart from harsh Roman reprisals that went on for months after the main British force was crushed. The Jewish Revolt is a better example, but even there, the Romans were pretty good about chasing down rebel raiders. In the Bar Kochba revolt of c. 132 AD, they even besieged rebels who had holed themselves up in cliffside caves. The Romans would lower archers in baskets to shoot in, or smoke the inhabitants out with burning brushwood, etc.

I'm not sure if we can determine exactly why the Romans ended up using the scutum/pilum/gladius combination. The origins go way back to the 6th or 7th century BC, when many Italian tribes were using such things. Troops with such equipment were used to back up the Greek-style hoplites of a Roman (or Etruscan) army up until the Republic was founded about 500 BC. After that, the hoplites went away and the scutum was used by all the heavy infantry. It does seem that the three lines of hastati, principes, and spear-armed triarii was effective against Gauls and similar opponents, but the system was being used against other Italians before the Gauls became a major problem.

Against mounted opponents, the Romans used their own cavalry, or allied cavalry. During the Empire, half of the army was formed of auxiliary units, and fully half of these were cavalry. And half of the auxiliary infantry units were actually mixed foot and horse. So well over a quarter of the Roman army was mounted, and very effective.

That's enough from me for the moment! If you want to know more about Roman stuff, a good place to visit is the Roman Army Talk board,

http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk

Or you can contact me directly, through my own website.

Enjoy, and Valete,

Matthew/Quintus, Legio XX

http://www.larp.com/legioxx/

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Alex Kurtzman
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Re: Roman swordsmanship

Postby Alex Kurtzman » Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:03 am

touche on some of those points. . . a lot of my roman military history is getting rusty.

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JeanryChandler
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Re: Roman swordsmanship

Postby JeanryChandler » Thu Aug 12, 2004 2:48 pm

Thanks for posting Matthew! As usual very informative and interesting. I have a few questions:

Do you know roughly when the pilum came into use as opposed to ordinary javelins or thong javelins?

When did the plumbata come into use? Do you know anything about the reference to thrusting sideways that I'd mentioned? I cannot remember where I read that. Thanks for pinpointing the anecdote about the Macedonians being cut up by gladii.

How heavy approximately were the different variants of the Roman swords.

Were the lengths you quoted for the entire sword pommel to tip or just the blade?

When would you say did the spatha begin to replace the gladius for infantry? When did the full 'cataphract' type armor come into use for the cavalry?

DB
"We can't all be saints"

John Dillinger


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