Getting pretty mixed up

[Alfred Wong]

Hello all, after reading Tobler's Secret o' German Swordsmahsip, I am quite confused with something...

1. The stances, comparing with Mr. J. Clements' book, there's something called "Zornhut", is that the same as vom Tag? They look a bit different when comparing the pictures. But yet they seems to be very close!

2. About dealing with Alber (fool's stance, lower stance, what ever @@" ) Is Scheitelhau effective against it? 'Cause from my experience, it seems that my arm will be cut first, by the opponent's false edge cut (short edge, yark yark yark, the names really got me). Is that my problem for not practising enough?

3. Another newbie question, how shall one deal with a middle stance? (Or Kendo-doodz' stance)

Right now I had thought of a few ways:

a) If the opponent is defencing, use hanging guard and charge.

b) Use the edge to "hammer" the opponent's weak edge, and strike.

Will there be any other good method?

Please help, thanks.

Alfredo <img src="/forum/images/icons/laugh.gif" alt="" />

[Jamie Fellrath]

Hello Alfred,

The stances, comparing with Mr. J. Clements' book, there's something called "Zornhut", is that the same as vom Tag? They look a bit different when comparing the pictures. But yet they seems to be very close!

Zornhut is very close to the Vom Tag stance, yes. If you look at Joachim Meyer's Fechtbuch, you'll see his example of a Zornhut (Wrathful Guard). It's sort of like a Vom Tag with attitude, IMHO. The weapon is pulled further back over the shoulder to give more power to a Zornhau strike.

My personal feeling here is that a Vom Tag is more than adequate for casting out a Zornhau - has anyone else ever come up with a good use for the Zornhut other than this?

About dealing with Alber (fool's stance, lower stance, what ever @@" ) Is Scheitelhau effective against it? 'Cause from my experience, it seems that my arm will be cut first, by the opponent's false edge cut (short edge, yark yark yark, the names really got me). Is that my problem for not practising enough?

I'd say the problem is more that you're standing there, waiting for the strike. As you deliver your Scheitelhau, traverse off line to the right or left (I generally go to the right, personally) to 1) void the opponent's strike and 2) perfect your own distance for the Scheitelhau. Remember that you should never be in a static stance, but always moving. A moving target is harder to hit, naturally.

Another newbie question, how shall one deal with a middle stance? (Or Kendo-doodz' stance)

There are numerous ways to deal with the Pflug, or Middle Stance. Basically you want to draw your opponent out of the stance to create an opening somewhere else. A fake strike, a beat against the blade, traversing to the side, these are all great ways to do it. I'm sure there are plenty more than that, too.

[Alfred Wong]

It surely help, thanks.

BTW, I find it is true that Zornhut is more than enough....

Anyway, in the last sparring event, I used Zornhut (Mr. JC's style) to deliver leg cut (diagonal one, is that counted as zornhau, too?), it's quite a useful stance anyway.

You can see the video here, it was a 10 rounds fight:

http://lancelot.servehttp.com/8-8-04/James%20vs%20Alfred%202%208-8-04.rm

The result of versusing my shielded bud, proper Zornhut (right stance) gave me:

3/5 successful strike, cutting his leg
1/5 Weapon broken, missing the opponent and hit the ground
1/5 Dead, missed the first strike and was overwhelmed.

the later 5 rounds I tried to use a "left" Zornhut, and was killed most of the time.

[Devin Wilson]

My personal feeling here is that a Vom Tag is more than adequate for casting out a Zornhau - has anyone else ever come up with a good use for the Zornhut other than this?

For simply striking a zornhau, yeah, vom tage is enough. Zornhut just gives you too much space to move through to be worth the exra energy and the amount it opens you up. Zornhut is a postion you move through while performing a series of strikes. For example, when strike a zornhau and immediatly another zornhau from the same side (doppelhau) you pass through zornhut. Another is if he strikes at you and you take a step back and then strike in the nach. As you move the instinctivly move the sword between the step and the strike, your sword will often be in zornhut.

Devin Wilson

[Brian Hunt]

Hi Alfred,

I looked at your video and while your zornhau looks alright, you have a tendency to strike once and then pause, or immediatly pull back to a cover against his return strike and then pause. You should strike and strike and strike, a strike can always turn into a cover or a displacement, but keeping the initiative or the vor is very important. For instance do a zornhau then immediatly return with an unterhau, then maybe another zornhau or a zwerchau, etc. You also need a little work on striking at the 4 openings, especially since you were fighting a sword and shield man with a longsword. He has fewer openings than you do due to the shield effectivly closing them. A strike where you release one hand from the sword while striking at his forward foot can drive a sword and shield man backwards or just cut him off at the ankles. Also try to move more with a transverse step on the 45's rather than just strainght in and out. This will help change the angles of attack to help you create or further exploit openings. Also attack your opponent, not his sword or his shield. I only note this because a couple of times you appeared to be trying to bind his sword with a strike instead of striking at him (could have just been the angle of the video and I could be wrong here on your intent). Otherwise, looking pretty good, just keep up the practice. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

I hope this post is helpful to you and doesn't come accross as overly critical.

Brian Hunt
GFS

[JeffGentry]

Hey Alfred Joachin Meyer also say's zornhut can be used to draw your openent in closer to get a harder strike but ou must be extremely careful and quick with the strike.

[Ryan Ricks]

some of the guys from ARMA virginia beach who went to jake norwood's tennessee seminar showed me a technique where from zornhut, your sword strikes out in a zwerchhau from the left behind your head, which would be the opposite direction your opponent would expect. seems pretty nasty to me. i think you kinda have to duck your head down a little to do it.

ryan

[KatherineJohnson]

I really dig zornhut, I'm not sure why. I think part of it is that zornhut seems to kind of trigger something that makes me feel more "martial". More often then not when I get really intent on winning I will start the fight from zornhut.

Jake and myself were doing some freeplay a few weeks ago and as we reset for our final round of the night he said "Ok, let's go really intensely this time." I nodded and We both immiedietly went into zornhut. We talked about it later and agreed that it does seem to make one feel more agressive to start in that guard.

Apart from the mental differance, which is of course subjective, I find that people also seem to be more likely to walk into your range when you're in that position. When the point is toward your opponent they will stick out of range, even vom tag seems to keep people at bay since it threatens so many strikes. But with zornhut..can't count the number of times people just walk right in range seemingly oblivious to the very obvious strike that will follow. I suppose the openness of the position causes this false sense of security, especially with newbies.

I think it's a good position as long as you are quick enough to reliably void and counter in the nach...

Plus it's got a cool name...come on "Wrath Guard", how cool is that? <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

[Alfred Wong]

Brian,

Thanks for the tips, you really got my weakness <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

Will try to improve that, anyway, I did this sparring before reading Tobler's book, now I will try to improve them, thanks again.

I also, after watching the video, find that I shall strike his exposed hand when he return strike, yeah, as Mr. JC said in his book.

Ryan,

Wow, that's tricky! Will try to use that later, hee hee.

Katherine,

I think Alber is good against vom Tag and Zornhut?

A quick, far false edge cut will do the job.


============

Thanks all,

Alfred <img src="/forum/images/icons/cool.gif" alt="" />

[James_Knowles]

IIRC Ringeck states that schiller breaks the plow. (I don't have my Ringeck handy. I still get the "s" terms mixed up.)

I've used it quite a bit but it seems to always put you in close, almost to ringen. I've also used unterhau to deflect if somebody is standing in static pflug., tail has a lot of power, but alber does just nicely.