Roman swordsmanship

[Alex Kurtzman]

well, the spatha began to replace the gladius in the later empire. My assumption is that it probably came into favor when the army started to become largely germanic (in the west) and it was a more comfortable weapon for them to use because it was similar to their own swords. I know, however, this also wasn't overnight. Over time the gladius also became longer, pattern welded, and gained fullers. There are some gladii that were recovered from denmark with cruciform style hilts and ring pommels (there was an illicit arms trade going on in the border areas, and the weapons have been identified as Roman) I'll have to consult my books at home before I can give a more detailed answer though.

The cataphract came from more eastern influence, namely the persian heavy cavalryman, but the cataphract and spatha showed up about the same time, the cataphract maybe a bit later actually.

[G.MatthewWebb]

Posted by Matt Easton: "Hispaniensis means in Indo-European "Spanish sword", Hispan denoting the Spanish peninsula, and Ensis being the pan-Indo-European word for sword."

Matt,

I believe this statement is not entirely correct. To my knowledge there is no language called Indo-European though there is a language family called that by English-speakers and called Indo-Germanische by German speakers. "Gladius Hispaniensis" looks like Latin to me though I do not know Latin. I believe that "Hispaniensis" means "from Spain". I do not think that "ensis" is a root word for sword in Indo-European languages.

All the Indo-European languages are thought by scholars to be descended from a parent language called PIE or Proto-Indo-European and all the words in that reconstructed language are denoted by an asterisk preceding the word. I believe that there is a dictionary of English that traces the words to their supposed PIE roots. Perhaps I can find a link and post it.

Matthew Webb
Oklahoma City, OK
ARMA applicant

[Ben Kamphaus]

Just an aside:

Matt, I just saw that you're listed as living in OKC. I live just south of you in Moore. Do you have a group of people that you practice with? As of yet I haven't found anyone to train with who is also interested in ARMA.

On the topic, though...

While I'm similarly suspicious of most claims to know any root word in Proto-Indo-European, ensis does in fact mean sword in Latin, and most scholars also link this to a "nsi" pattern, among which the sanskrit "asi" is also cited. If I remember correctly, ensis refers to a two-edged sword specifically, but I can't find a dictionary at the moment that gives me anything other than just "sword."

[Matt Easton]

Hi,

"To my knowledge there is no language called Indo-European though there is a language family called that by English-speakers"

Yes, there is a language family called that, as you state.

"Gladius Hispaniensis" looks like Latin to me"

Well given that it's Roman, no great surprise there! <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" /> It is Latin.

"I believe that "Hispaniensis" means "from Spain".

No, Hispani means from the Hisplanic peninsula. Ensis is Latin for sword, coming from an Indo-European root word. Latin was one of the many languages that developed from earlier Indo-European dialects, also like as Etruscan.

"I do not think that "ensis" is a root word for sword in Indo-European languages."

Well.. It is. Just do a Google search on it... There are variations of the word of course.

In any case, Latin has Indo-European roots, and Ensis is a latin word, so it's hard to argue that Ensis doesn't have Indo-European roots.. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

Matt

[G.MatthewWebb]

Ben,

Send me an email. I'm a doc at Tinker AFB.
gmatthewwebb@yahoo.com

[Alex Kurtzman]

gladius is the latin word for sword, and hispanensis means "from spain" the glaidus was adopted from the spanish tribes, before that the romans used a different style of short sword.

spatha also means sword. . . the modern greek word for sword is "spathion"

[James_Knowles]

spatha also means sword. . . the modern greek word for sword is "spathion"

I'm still trying to hunt down a history of spath* in Greek. AFAIK it's post 100AD. But it's in pretty much all of the Byzantine manuscripts I've seen.

To be pedantic in Demotike it's "spathi." As a general rule the neuter singular ~ion endings have been shortened to just iota (~i). Also, the neuter singular ~on endings have lost the final nu, becoming just ~o.

[Ben Kamphaus]

Double checked some details. Words for sword in Latin include Ensis, Gladius, Chalybs, Ferrum, and Spatha, from the dictionary I could find, though Ferrum and Chalybs probably only mean sword in the same sense that "iron" and "steel" can be used in our language to signify sword, since that's the only meaning I had heard for them before.

Hispaniensis however is one of the adjective forms of the Spanish peninsula (the other is hispanus-a-um) and the usage here does in fact mean "of the Spanish peninsula." As English speakers we just have to resist that Germanic impulse to think in compound words. <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

EDIT: Also, on rereading, I just wanted to correct something -

"The cataphract came from more eastern influence, namely the persian heavy cavalryman, but the cataphract and spatha showed up about the same time, the cataphract maybe a bit later actually."

I'm not sure this is entirely correct - the cataphract came from Steppe influences, specifically the Sarmatian heavy cavalry. The Sassanid dynasty in Persia did employ a "cataphract" cavalry, but I believe it was copied from an earlier Sarmatian or more likely Parthian cavalry.

[Brian Hunt]

I just wanted to add that yes, gladius and ensis are the latin words for sword, and because it is latin there will be variations in these root words. The word gladiator could therefore simply be 'one who uses or fights with a sword.' Ferrum is primarily used in reference to iron, if it is used for the word sword, it is to describe that it is an iron sword, it is also used to describe any iron tool or any iron weapon. Ferrum is a general noun for all manner of iron items. Chalybs is also used in a similar manner, though while it is generally meant for steel items, it can also be used for iron ones. Just as an aside, 'ferreus' is the word used as an adjective for iron items in Latin, ie. "gladius ferreus" would be an iron sword, and 'chalybeius' is the adjectvie for steel, therefore "ensis chalybeius" would be a steel sword. And according to my Latin dictionary Hispaniensis is an adjective that simply means "spanish," and it is a derivitive of the word Hispania that is the female noun for "spain."

I hope this is of some help, and that I didn't just bore everyone. <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

Brian Hunt
GFS

[Matt Easton]

Guys, Google really is your friend... Simply type in 'ensis' and see all the links that come up...

Alex wrote:
"gladius is the latin word for sword"

No. Gladius is the Latin name for a gladius. Ensis is the *generic* Latin word for sword.

"and hispanensis means "from spain""

No. It means sword from the Hispanic peninsula. Ensis means sword. Spain did not exist then anyway <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />.

"the glaidus was adopted from the spanish tribes, before that the romans used a different style of short sword."

That is the standard explanation yes. But it's not as simple as that, as early Latin swords (Etruscan swords also) show a slow evolution into what became known as the Gladius Hispaniensis. Therefore it is not a simple matter to just say the Romans copied their weapon from the Celtic people of the Hispanic peninsula. More accurately it may be fair to say that the Romans had a sword which was under its own internal evolution, and somehow (we do not know how) it was influenced by the swords of the Hispanic peninsula. And hence is came to be named after them, though Celtic swords of that area are clearly different.

"spatha also means sword"

In Latin it meant a longer sword at first - a specific type of sword. It was only later that Spatha became Spada in early Italian, and Espada in some other Latin dialects, and other various forms of the word.

Matt

[Matt Easton]

"according to my Latin dictionary Hispaniensis is an adjective that simply means "spanish," and it is a derivitive of the word Hispania that is the female noun for "spain."

Hmm, interesting. I'd certainly accept that if it's the case.

Matt

[G.MatthewWebb]

I emailed a friend of mine who took a Master's in Classics at Yale and asked him about the phrase "gladius hispaniensis". This is what he had to say.

"Spanish sword" is right. "Ensis" is indeed an alternative word for sword -- a synonym for "gladius," according to Quintilian, and almost completely restricted to poetical use -- but in your example it's an unrelated gentile suffix [it designates national origin -- from gens, gentis, "people" or "nation". Just a term found in old grammar books], meaning "of" or "belonging to." So hispaniensis, derived from the noun Hispania, is simply an adj. meaning "Spanish." Other examples are germanicensis ("German") and siciliensis ("Sicilian"). The Linnaean botanical nomenclature contains many such species names: "canadensis," "caroliniensis," and even "noveboracensis" (discovered in New York).

Remembering exactly what sort of sword a gladius was is your specialty, not mine. Presumably it's what a gladiator used: something straight and short, capable of both cutting and thrusting. In literary use it's a general word for sword."


Matt, thanks for educating me about the Latin word "ensis" for sword, and you're right about Spanish in modern times not referring to the whole of the Iberian peninsula, but I guess I don't agree with the Spanish appropriating that term for themselves to the exclusion of the Portuguese in the first place, and I certainly don't like calling the Castilian language Spanish!!!

About Etruscan: it is not considered an Indo-European language but an isolate though it seems to share many words with other languages. In fact, Latin borrowed considerably form the Etruscan culture though I don't know if that included martial matters. Here is an interesting website to the Etruscans for those who are interested:
http://www.mysteriousetruscans.com/

Matthew Webb
Oklahoma City, OK
USA

[Matt Easton]

Thanks for all that - I guess we all know a bit more about this interesting subject now! <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

One final thought regarding the cutting vs. thrusting issue that came up - taking the sources from a historian's standpoint, clearly the gladius was employed in both thrusting and cutting on a regular basis, or Vegetius and others would not have bothered to say that it was better to use the point more. Had there been no question on the matter, then they presumably would not have commented on the subject.

Another interesting question to raise is how the word Spatha came about, and why that word in its later forms, gave the modern generic name for sword in Latin speaking countries (Spada, Espada etc), rather than the word Gladius being used. Maybe simply because the longer cavalry sword is what gave rise to the swords of the post-Roman and Migration period, while the Gladius basically became extinct?

Matt

[Casper Bradak]

Written evidence aside, if the gladius was never used to cut with, it would not have been wide, flat and sharp. There are earlier swords made exclusively for thrusting, and they do not resemble the gladius.

[Alex Kurtzman]

gladius is in the latin english dictionary as a word for sword.

and yes I am aware that spain as it exists today, did not exist in roman times, but they did refer to the iberian peninsula with the blanket term of hispana. . .