Sparring the HDGD sparring champion of Seoul 2004

[Lance Chan]

http://www.rsw.com.hk/activities.htm#jason

You may read the report here. Mpeg videos. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

[Alfred Wong]

Now I'm a true "down to earth" guy.

Got beaten down to the very ground

[JeanryChandler]

Interesting clips Lance, and Alfred. Lance, as usual, I am impressed with your energy and your fluid style.

I watched your match with this guy Jason. Can you explain in a bit more detail who he is? Is he a kendo fighter? Did I read correctly you said from Korea? It was hard to tell with the helmet but he looked European. What sparring competition did he win?

I was impressed with how many bouts you fought without getting tired. I wonder how hot it is there right now? I did a little light sparring here today and could only go 3 or 4 bouts at a time.

It was interesting how Jason attacked from the same two guards so often, with the same downward strike, and seemed to rely on voiding rather than parrying. I've seen something similar from local kendo fighters here.

I'm wondering, why didn't you try a more aggressive parry and counter? Though he is obviously very fast and quick on his feet, it seems like with his single downward strike it would make sense. I only mention this because I have used similar techniques against kendo fencers both here and in Germany. An aggressive approach in a hanging guard, with a parry and immediate counter seemed to be effective to me. I wonder what your thoughts are on this.

I notice in many of your clips many fencers are using curved bladed weapons, dao and katana. What if any difference do you notice in the performance or fighting style of curved versus strait bladed weapons, false edge cuts and otherwise?

Did some swords break in some of those clips?

Thanks for posting some of them in .mpg format.

DB

[Lance Chan]

It was like 88 F that day and was quite humid. There was raining (so is today). So we were all sweaty and the sweat kept dripping from the lower end of our clothes.

Jason Dudek is a Canadian who taught English in Korea. Just like the former Haidong Gumdo practitioner I've sparred, Anthony Boyd, they were both from Canada and worked as contracted English teachers in Korea. Of course they took the chance to study Korean martial arts over there. Anthony was the form champion of Korea in 2000, and Jason was the sparring champion this year in Seoul competition. Both competitions were Haidong Gumdo competitions.

Haidong Gumdo is not the Korean version of kendo. It's a battlefield swordsmanship tgat is kinda like ARMA approach. They do full contact and almost full body targeting sparring with shinai, they do form work, and they do real sword test cutting as well. My impression is Anthony is more familiar with real sword test cutting while Jason is more concentrated on shinai sparring... so that's why Jason was not aware of the result of my cutting on his hands during the sparring. He later realized the terrible result it would be if I was using a real sword after I've shown him some of my pork arm test cutting videos.

I think Jason's style is optimized for competition. You see, he seldom calls for being hit because he's used to rely on the judge to signal the hit. He's also concentrating on hitting big, obvious targets so it would be visible to the judge. Unlike Anthony, who were aware that his elbow and fingers could be hit, Jason seemed to ignore that totally... maybe because of the rules. In fact, their style differs a lot. Anthony fought with a center-gravity and Jason fought with a forward-balanced gravity. Anthony fought more for his own safety (like me) and Jason fought for winning at all cost. Jason uses his forward balance to make a fall and use that fall to speed up his attack. A very aggressive and quick way to attack, but that leads to false time in Silver terms also (that's why his hand and elbow were hit numerous time by my sword's false edge).

Jason said on 1 vs 1, he uses mostly kendo techniques. HDGD techniques were for battlefield 1 vs multi. However, on the day we sparred, there was a kendo friend present and according to him, Jason's techniques were not very kendo-like. The forward balance falling attacks as well as the jumping attacks and spinning attacks were not popular in kendo. Moreover, Jason cut legs too.

I don't do more aggressive parry and counter because my philosophy in sparring is "stay alive first" and "victory second". By going in, hanging guard and counter, I may be slice through the belly or risking a double kill. Instead, with my length advantage, I chose to stay away from where he could hit me and attack his closest targets available to me. So I can disable him and stay alive. The point is... why go close with him if my weapon is longer than his? <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

I did hanging and counter a few times when he sped to me very close... he did a jumping cut down and I hanging parried him, then pass backward and counter cut his head while voiding his horizontal cut at belly. But that was risky... I always spar as if I was using real sword.. That's my attitude. If I can stay safe by throwing far reaching false edge cuts at his fingers, wrist, elbows ore forearms before he could launch his attack, then why not?

The available of false edge cuts changes the whole game and my fighting style has successful in turning many single edge sword users into using European weapons (heheheheh). I think the biggest different is the single edge swords tend to strike a bit harder due to the more forward balance (suited as cutters) and the double edges swords are quicker and longer, giving a higher rate of attacks and reach advantages. I mean this is a gross generalization, after all.

Oh yea, Jason manage to break my old katana that was lent to public use. The katana was made in January and had gone through many battles in the hands of newbies, who tends to damage the sword the most by hitting the ground, doing hell a lot of blade contacts to try to look cool, hitting the opponent's guard instead of the fingers. ... And Jason finally broke it by losing his grip and let the sword flew straight to the ground. So we all considered the katana has received an "Honorable discharge from service".

HAHAHHAHA....

[Alfred Wong]

Seems that Lance had nearly explained all, I shall add some comments on that day's sparring...

Wella, as you see from the result of that day:

Jason vs Alfred
1. Alfred cut hand and arm with combo.
2. Alfred cut elbow and belly with combo
3. Jason cut wrist.
4. Jason cut wrist.
5. Alfred cut forearm.
6. Jason cut hand. Alfred cut head.
7. Alfred cut wrists. Jason cut arms.
8. Alfred cut forearm.
9. Jason cut head. Alfred cut stomach.
10. Alfred cut belly. Jason cut shoulder.
11. Jason cut head.
12. Alfred cut back of knee (the back leg).
13. Jason cut head.
14. Alfred cut back of knee and then knee.
15. Jason cut head.
16. Jason cut chest.
17. Alfred hit leg with wrong blade alignment. Jason cut head.
18. Jason cut head. Alfred cut thigh.
19. Alfred cut side through Jason’s parry.
20. Jason cut head.
21. Alfred cut body. Jason cut head.
22. Jason cut hand.
23. Alfred cut groin.
24. Jason cut head.
25. Jason cut head.
Jason used bastard sword since then.
26. Alfred cut knee.
27. Jason cut head.
28. Jason cut head.
29. Jason cut head.
30. Alfred cut elbow.
31. Alfred cut back of knee.
32. Jason cut head.
33. Alfred cut body, Jason cut head.
34. Jason cut knee.
35. Alfred cut foot through Jason’s parry.

It happens that, I slipped through Jason's hanging guard quite a few times.

Also, please note that some of my Ochs are not nice. The tip happened to be pointing too up.

I lose in points, I am nearly 4:6 to Jason <img src="/forum/images/icons/frown.gif" alt="" />

Afterall I am only a 6 months old swordsman. But please note that if it's a real situation, Jason is dead coz' his arm was cut first.

Some may wonder why we use false edge cut so often? Will the hit be too light? Yes, false edge cut is lighter, but if the target is some weak point, like fingers, arms' tendon, it's more than enough to disable the opponent <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

Another note on hanging guard : If Jason blocked me with hanging guard, it's likely that I will use Doubling, and we both got killed by each other

[Anthony Boyd]

I think Lance made a very good assessment of Jason's sparring style. One thing that I will add is that Jason tends to quickly discard that which does not work. Jason began his sparring training with wooden swords and with some use of split bamboo. He made a decision to stop worrying about what sort of damage he might take and found that the lack of hesitance upped his speed. After this period though he has spent more and more time using our padded armour and the split bamboo sparring sword (juk-to in Korean/shinai) and so has perhaps forgotten some of the dangers of his aggressive style. There are certainly fewer and fewer sanctioned opportunities to spar with anything other than padding and juk-to here in Seoul.
When Jason first came to Seoul to work and train, he employed a wider variety of stances and attacks, but as weeks and months passed these gave way in volume to the deliberately chosen set of preferred methods he employed here. I imagine getting the results and seeing how often he was crippled before striking will have him rethinking his entire approach.
In the videos, I feel that Lance was fairly aggressive and did not merely rely on reaction or greater speed to take easy shots at Jason. I think it showed good economy of motion. I too prefer to let powerhouses and young'uns exhaust themselves with bigger motions.
Where I would personally have liked to see more is in the area of follow-up. As Lance mentioned, Jason took a long time to start signalling that he'd been hit. In the video, Jason seems to chase them to the bounds of the sparring area a lot, long past the point when someone would have been dead. This lends the false impression that Lance and crew are being overwhelmed by Jason when in fact, they may just be waiting for their hit to register on him. <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

Jeanry Chandler mentioned that Jason seemed to be fighting from a kendo basis, but I think as Lance implied, that is viewer bias, the differences outweigh the similarities in this case I think, plus Jason has had virtually no contact with kendo players.

The sparring competition which Jason won took place early this year in Seoul, sponsored by the Seoul Regional Haidong Gumdo Federation and was the first of its kind. From the reactions after the event, it may also have been the last. Like all such first-time endeavours there were rule and safety issues which may not be resolvable.
Jason won the adult competition with 0 losses. Bouts were 2.5 minutes in length for qualifiying rounds, and 3 minutes for the final round. One of the larger controversies at the event was that one ring of judges was allowing full-body targetting while the other was not. Jason's approach to sparring served him well here, although he would have won regardless. I ended up facing Jason in my second match and lost - which left me free to relax and recover with his other victims. On the bright side for me, Jason felt I would have killed him if the match had been real. Can't complain about that!

My own sparring style is currently based on hitting without being hit. As we got more involved in competition-style sparring the "off-target", "ignored" and "illegal" hits really began to irk me. The less I got to spar with wooden weapons, the less able I found myself to be and the more often I would get hit in sparring - often just as I was striking for a 'point'.

So, the result is that I am working at building my perception/anticipation to a higher level and figthing from the point of view of 'hit best - not first'.

PS: Lance, I was not the forms champion of 2000. I won a gold medal in the preliminaries. I came closer to that level in 2003 at a regional competition, placing 4th.

[Lance Chan]

Thanks for the correction! <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" /> I hope you enjoy the video at the cost of me getting some bruises! HAHHAHA <img src="/forum/images/icons/laugh.gif" alt="" />

[JeanryChandler]

Lance, thanks for the analysis and report.

I agree with your premise that it is good to fight as if your life was really on the line. I think however that you may have found more success with a slightly more aggressive style in countering. It did also seem that with regard to your follow up, it makes sense to fend off the opponent rather than flee or allow him to chase you even if you felt that you had an unregistered hit. If the first hit wasn't registered, hit them harder the second time, it's not at all unusual in sparring.

To get back to the strategy, I think it is one of the basic tenets of German Longsword fencing in particular that oft-times, a more aggressive approach can actually lead you to a safer outcome. Sometimes by contrast a more cauitous approach can lead to more hits and more defeats. Even Italian longsword fencing such as Fiore emphasizes more aggressive followups and countering.

I find that the downward type of attacks Jason was making can be effectively dealt with by a parry and riposte, especially when the attack is telegraphed as it appears to have been in most of these bouts. I have had to use my fencing techniques in self defense before on the street, in situations where a mistake would have led to a split open head or worse, and I relied on that technique. I do not think it is only suitible for "invulnerable warrior" mentality with padded weapons, to the contrary, I think it is often the safest approach.

One of the nice things about having these excellent videos of your sparring matches is that you can watch your matches and learn from them, much like sports players do. You seem to be very good at sniping with true and false edge cuts at arms, feet, and hands, and that is a good weapon for your repetoire as a fencer. There is no reason not to add to that with other techniques, you don't want to end up as a "one trick pony" because then you are too predictable and can be defeated. Each enemy is different, so it's good to have different approaches in your arsenal.

J

[JeanryChandler]

Anthony, thanks for your comments, I have just a few reactions.

Jasons style appeared similar to Kendo to me when compared to Western full-contact Fencing styles. I'm unfamiliar with the nuances between Korean and Japanese sport fencing, and I assume most of the people on this board are as well.

Scoring tournaments is sadly, going to be a problem for a long time I fear. It's amazing that one judge was allowing hits that the other was not! Even if the judges are in sinc however, it can be quite difficult IMO for witnesses to be able to determine who got a hit in. Ultimately, some kind of electronic scoring as in sport foil fencing will have to be introduced probably before tournament fencing will ever become as widespread as it probably could be. It's certainly fun to watch <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

With all due respect, IMO your preferences in striking "better not first" aren't really applicable to WMA, in which you have to be both. WMA is specifically intended to train for real combat and abhors specialization for sport or tournament fighting, because of the lack of realism which inevitably results from the gap between the scoring system and real fighting.

J

[Lance Chan]

My point is, if I hit his hands and he didn't register a hit, shall I take a hit at my head in exchanging a blow at his head to finish him off? Not my preference.

He's not that slow that I can hit his hands, and then fully parry his attack before committing another one. Not to mention that hit both his hand and then his head before he attacks my head.

My bottom line is I dun like to be hit, and if I'm going to be hit, it's better not somewhere lethal. My urge to finish off someone with the expense of my life is nil. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

[JeanryChandler]

I can fully understand that sentiment! I just feel that sometimes, a more aggressive approach can save you more effectively. Perhaps I missed some of the detail in the clips you sent, but it looked like he got quite a few lethal hits on you. Rather than striking his hand and then parrying and countering, what I was suggesting was just stepping in, parrying and countering.

Of course, it can be hard to pick up the nuances of a fight from a video clip, especially if you weren't there <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

Tell Jason if he is ever anywhere near New Orleans to look me up. He looks like a very challenging opponent, with superb timing and speed, I would love to spar with him. The same invitation goes out to you and you comrades as well, of course, as it has before. I was able to find great and very inexpensive accomodations for Southern Knights <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

J

[JeanryChandler]

One other question, do you ever incorporate grappling in your fencing matches?

J

[Lance Chan]

I think if you compare to his valid lethal hits on me and those on the others, you'll notice a very significant difference in the number. For example, Alfred was fighting with less retreat and with a longer sword than I did. It can be taken as a reference.

Yes, we do grappling too.

[Lance Chan]

Some stats (lethal hits mentioned below were shoulder, face, head, belly, torso hits... cutting limbs off would be lethal too actually but that was not counted here):

Alfred got hit 23 times out of 35 bouts. 0.66
17 of the hits were lethal. 0.74
Total lethal rate in bouts: 0.49

I got hit 16 times out of 49 bouts. 0.325
10 of the hits were lethal. 0.625
Total lethal rate in bouts: 0.21

[Anthony Boyd]

Jeanry Chandler wrote:
"With all due respect, IMO your preferences in striking "better not first" aren't really applicable to WMA, in which you have to be both. "

Of course, and this is hardly exclusive to WMA - let's be realistic. Anyone from anywhere on any battlefield wants to get home. I fear I may have been unclear with my use of the word strike. Allow me to rephrase:

At this point in my training, I am working on learning to better anticipate what my opponent is going to do, so that I may turn their strikes to my advantage more often. I think the simple phrasing I employed in my post led you to believe that I was willing to take a hit to non-lethal area in order to score a lethal hit elsewhere.

In terms of mounting an aggressive offence and keeping up the attacks until a definite stoppage (point, dismemberment, death) is reached I agree. Of course, in Lance's group they have a fully functional honor system going and a lot of the retreating that you see in the Jason clips does not normally happen. It's just the introduction of a newbie that causes this in these clips. Anyway, I hear what you are saying, it all pretty much comes down to Liechtenauer - "Those with wisdom loathe the one forced to defend."

For final clarification, the only differences between Japanese and Korean sport kendo would be in terminology. No other differences of approach exist. I don't train in that art and my interests do not lie in sport sparring. For a look at some of the things I do do, please feel free to check out my website. (www.stormpages.com/haidonggumdo).

Thanks for the responses, it's been helpful to have your comments in mind when watching the clips.