Two New Editorials

For Historical European Fighting Arts, Weaponry, & Armor

Moderators: Webmaster, Stacy Clifford

User avatar
John_Clements
Posts: 1167
Joined: Wed Sep 18, 2002 10:43 pm
Location: Atlanta area

Two New Editorials

Postby John_Clements » Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:57 pm

Two new pieces now online (surely to be controversial to some as they are more of the usual "biatching" that's part of ARMA's mission to raise the credibility of this subject):

Reviewing Reviews - considerations on replica sword opinions

Understanding the Origin of Misconceptions - where do false impressions come from?
Do NOT send me private messages via Forum messenger. I NEVER read them. To contact me please use direct email instead.

User avatar
David Kite
Posts: 192
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2002 10:34 am
Location: Terre Haute, IN USA

Re: Two New Editorials

Postby David Kite » Tue Aug 24, 2004 12:01 pm

Good articles. They broached important topics I hadn't really considered before.

The "Reviewing Reviews" is very applicable for us as there are all sorts of sword reviews on the net, but how many of them are by martial artists for martial artists, and how many are from collectors/reenactors with little martial experience with the weapons? Definitely something worth considering.

David Kite
ARMA in IN

User avatar
JeanryChandler
Posts: 978
Joined: Sat Dec 28, 2002 1:45 am
Location: New Orleans, aka northern Costa Rica
Contact:

Re: Two New Editorials

Postby JeanryChandler » Tue Aug 24, 2004 12:35 pm

I liked these articles. The first resonates with feelings, doubts I have had reading a lot of recent ecxtatic sword reviews on extremely expensive swords which even in my poor level of knowlege, seem to have basic flaws, like they are at least a pound too heavy or have balance points which are way off, not to even speak of the extensive durability issues brought up in the aritcle, which are never even brought up or are at best lightly touched upon by most reviewers. I think there is definately an "emperor has no clothes" phenomenon going on, especially when the prices of replicas is fast approaching those of real swords. I saw a pretty nice 16th century Saxon bastard sword on an auction site recently for $2,200, which is very close to the prices of some of the very latest high end replicas I've seen, and it was also a pound lighter!

As for the second article, I agree fully, and I would like to repeat my earlier suggestion that ARMA do a small, perhaps gently humerous press release as a reminder every time an historical or fantasy movie is done depicting fencing or any form of pre-firearms armed combat. I think it would be good for ARMA and the WMA community and may actually influence Hollywood some as well.

Then again, I've been wrong before...


J
"We can't all be saints"
John Dillinger

User avatar
John_Clements
Posts: 1167
Joined: Wed Sep 18, 2002 10:43 pm
Location: Atlanta area

Re: Two New Editorials

Postby John_Clements » Tue Aug 24, 2004 5:15 pm

Hi

I agree re the "emperor has no clothes" situation, as sometimes it does seem odd that one could own an original for the price of some replicas. But then, would you want to risk damaging either?

As to the other suggestion...well, certainly we cannot expect a "performance" Art to be the same as a "martial" Art, but we should at least be aware how the former has come to influence the latter. ...A direct reversal of the historical situation.

JC
Do NOT send me private messages via Forum messenger. I NEVER read them. To contact me please use direct email instead.

User avatar
JeanryChandler
Posts: 978
Joined: Sat Dec 28, 2002 1:45 am
Location: New Orleans, aka northern Costa Rica
Contact:

Re: Two New Editorials

Postby JeanryChandler » Tue Aug 24, 2004 6:33 pm

I agree with you that art and martial arts do not necessarily blend.

But there does seem to be a building interest in the western martial tradition, and technical trends infiltrating back and forth between the film industry and the computer games / rpg industry whih is gradually creeping toward more verisimilitude. Shows like Highlander and films like Gladiator and the LOTR have spurred a lot of interest, and triggered a mini industrial boom in bad replica weapons (a tie in to your first essay). I always thought, perhaps wrongly, that it would be good for real WMA to have a voice here, as there is a lot of confused babbling in the darkness!

Increasingly these films have tried to focus more on historical accuracy. In LOTR for example they had some guy actually forge all the weapons, and took pains to try to make the fighting realistic (with ambiguous results)

Lately there has even been a specific trend toward claiming films are "historically accurate", this was a big part of the hype of the recent King Arthur flop. It might have been helpful to point out some of the gross technical errors in that one!

J
"We can't all be saints"

John Dillinger

User avatar
Ryan Ricks
Posts: 239
Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2004 10:15 am
Location: marietta, GA

Re: Two New Editorials

Postby Ryan Ricks » Tue Aug 24, 2004 8:56 pm

has everyone seen the video clip of the QVC knife guy who is hyping up this cheap katana? he repeatedly bangs it on the desk, finally it breaks in half and stabs him in the chest. looks like the hype there almost cost that guy his life?

ryan
ARMA associate member

User avatar
James_Knowles
Posts: 143
Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2003 7:15 pm
Location: Utah, USA

Re: Two New Editorials

Postby James_Knowles » Wed Aug 25, 2004 12:24 pm

there has even been a specific trend toward claiming films are "historically accurate"


I've seen that, and have been repeatedly disappointed to the point that when I hear that I no longer believe it.

In watching the extra material for the movie "Timeline," a lightbulb went on in my head (OK, I'm kind of slow sometimes) so that I think that I started to understand what they mean by "historically accurate." What we mean and what they mean are two separate things.

In that very B-grade scifi show, it's supposed to be 1351 (?? or there abouts), but the range of arms and armour spanned several hundred years, with the fighting being typical Hollywood stunt garbage.

In that extra features section of the DVD, the prop people were raving about their "historical accuracy," which appears to have been adopted without question by the rest of the production team.

However, the prop department's concept of "historically accurate" seems to be rooted in the idea that if their arms and armour looks like what they see in history books, then it must be "historically accurate." Never mind that actors were running around in a hodge-podge of equipment from various milleaux. That's not the job of the prop department in their mind.

In other words, their concept of what is and is not accurate is rooted in their ignorance. Others, in their ignorance repeat the statement.

I'm not holding my breath that anything will change at any time in the forseeable future. The self-congratulatory and bottom-line culture in Hollywood has no aparent impetus to ever re-examine its assumptions. I'm assuming that they will need an independent-driven shock to rattle their cages.

Anyhow, just random rattling from my empty head.
James Knowles
ARMA Provo, UT

User avatar
Casper Bradak
Posts: 641
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2002 4:32 am
Location: Utah, U.S.

Re: Two New Editorials

Postby Casper Bradak » Wed Aug 25, 2004 3:03 pm

Nice. I think it'll be tough for anyone to contest those. I think that knowledge is getting through and making the rounds, at least in the RMA community.
ARMA SFS
Leader, Wasatch area SG, Ut. U.S.

http://www.arma-ogden.org/

User avatar
John_Clements
Posts: 1167
Joined: Wed Sep 18, 2002 10:43 pm
Location: Atlanta area

Re: Two New Editorials

Postby John_Clements » Thu Aug 26, 2004 8:21 pm

Well, I might add that in the same way popular media has been a large part of the problem, it has the potential to be part of the solution.
Do NOT send me private messages via Forum messenger. I NEVER read them. To contact me please use direct email instead.

User avatar
Allen Johnson
Posts: 638
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2004 1:43 am
Location: Columbia, SC

Re: Two New Editorials

Postby Allen Johnson » Fri Aug 27, 2004 4:10 am

I'm working on it... <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />
"Why is there a picture of a man with a sword in his head on your desk?" -friends inquiry

User avatar
David Craig
Posts: 81
Joined: Wed May 12, 2004 10:19 am
Location: New Jersey, U.S.

Re: Two New Editorials

Postby David Craig » Fri Aug 27, 2004 6:58 am

I think the "Reviewing Reviews" article is dead on when it comes to positive reviews of swords posted on the internet. Negative reviews, however, can still be useful, even without knowing anything about the person posting it. For example, if I post a typical glowing review saying: "this sword feels great, handles great, and it's really sharp!" -- this is utterly useless. Without knowing anything about me, the poster, you have to take this "review" with a grain of salt. On the other hand if I post a review saying: "this sword weighs nearly 6lbs, it's tip heavy, the grip feels loose and the handle rattles" -- you don't need to know anything about my credentials to know that this is one sword you don't want anything to do with.

David Craig

User avatar
JeffGentry
Posts: 1089
Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2004 8:35 am
Location: Columbus Ohio

Re: Two New Editorials

Postby JeffGentry » Fri Aug 27, 2004 10:58 am

Hey guy's

thought i would ring in here after reading the article's again. Me personaly i totaly agree with John that some do get offended because they have an "emotional investment" in the sword they own or make, Me personaly it is a sword a tool if you will, now like my hammer i do not have an emotion inestment in the hammer i own, so why would i have one in my sword i want it to do what it is designed to do which is to cut flesh and bone while knowing that in it's day would have encountered much harder thing's chain mail, plate, pole weapon's, sheild rim's, so if the sword is messed up by these then it is not IMHO a "real" sword and i want to test it on as many of these as possible to see what it will take, it will eventual be damaged by this type of thing the question is how long will it take, hammer's and sword do wear out and get dammaged eventualy.lol

Now i doubt any of us would use a Rapier against plate aromour, chain mail, as in the movie's it is believed though by those that have been educated on history by the media that they could and did.

now i like reading fantasy adveture and such but it is called fiction for a reason, alot though get caught up in the movie's and the book's and that is what they enjoy and want nothing else, we in ARMA i think are not your typical history, fantasy, martial artist, people so we need to be a little more knowledgeable (i'm trying not there yet) and when we encounter some one who think's they know something they don't then i think our action's speak louder than word's and it will show in the end we do know something they don't.

I think this is partly why some people react adversly to ARMA and Mr. JC himself because they know we and John are on the right track and that there false hood is going by the way side and they don't want to put forth the effort to correct themselve's and they fear that they will be looked down on for saying they were wrong about something's and we all know what we are doing is an effort and take's time and work, and we are not going to be right everytime we say something,
look at some of the question's i ask on here they sound realy dumb in my mind but oh well you can think i'm an idiot if you answer my question though and we get me straightened out then that is what i care about, i know i'm not a guiness and am ok with it. <img src="/forum/images/icons/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Well this is just my prattling i'll give the soap box to someone else for now. <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />
Semper Fidelis

Usque ad Finem

Grace, Focus, Fluidity

User avatar
Randall Pleasant
Posts: 872
Joined: Mon Sep 23, 2002 3:35 pm
Location: Flower Mound, Texas, USA

Re: Two New Editorials

Postby Randall Pleasant » Fri Aug 27, 2004 12:44 pm

Scholars

As Jeff just pointed out, in addition to the misconceptions in the popular media, there are major misconceptions within the sword community itself, namely the myths sounding edge bashing and cutting with rapiers. There is another source of misconception within the sword community that is directly related to reviews of modern swords– marketing hype. Marketing hype has introduced some major misconceptions into the sword community that is going to be as difficult to over come as any thing from the popular media. For example, I have just recently read a discussion else where on the Internet where a self-identified beginner was giving a bad review to a $100 steel blunt sword because when he held the sword in one hand and hit the middle of the blade on the flat it did not vibrate correctly. There is also the false belief by many that one should feel little or no vibrations at all in the hilt of their sword when cutting since such vibrations represent a leak of energy from the cut. Thus many reviews that are seen on the Internet are not concern with how a sword compares to historical swords, but rather how they match popular marketing hype.
Ran Pleasant

User avatar
JeanryChandler
Posts: 978
Joined: Sat Dec 28, 2002 1:45 am
Location: New Orleans, aka northern Costa Rica
Contact:

Re: Two New Editorials

Postby JeanryChandler » Fri Aug 27, 2004 1:42 pm

There seems to be a trend with a lot of "collectors" as opposed to fencers to like weapons which are really good at cutting shanai or cardboard tubes, because that is basically all they do with them. I think a lot of American collectors especially fetishize some of these superb 'choppers' and for this reason like heavier weapons than I would personally ever be comfortable sparring or fighting with.

Even without consumer trends, there are these sub-markets for swords because the fact is, nobody uses them to kill people anymore (well, almost nobody <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" /> ) so we use blunts for sparring or live play, sharps for test-cutting, and as John pointed out, some very expensive replicas or antiques, we would be loathe to use at all.

I think for this reason the best guideline still has to be the original weapons. We have to take up where Mr Oakeshott left off, and continue efforts to evaluate and categorize medieval weapons so we can understand their truely remarkable nature.

J
"We can't all be saints"

John Dillinger

User avatar
Casper Bradak
Posts: 641
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2002 4:32 am
Location: Utah, U.S.

Re: Two New Editorials

Postby Casper Bradak » Fri Aug 27, 2004 2:00 pm

"As Jeff just pointed out, in addition to the misconceptions in the popular media, there are major misconceptions within the sword community itself, namely the myths sounding edge bashing and cutting with rapiers."

Hey, don't forget the slicing motion required to shear through mail with a cutting blade!
Sorry, had to say it.
ARMA SFS

Leader, Wasatch area SG, Ut. U.S.



http://www.arma-ogden.org/


Return to “Research and Training Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 26 guests

cron

 
 

Note: ARMA - The Association for Renaissance Martial Arts and the ARMA logo are federally registered trademarks, copyright 2001. All rights reserved. No use of the ARMA name or emblem is permitted without authorization. Reproduction of material from this site without written permission of the authors is strictly prohibited. HACA and The Historical Armed Combat Association copyright 1999 by John Clements. All rights reserved. Contents of this site 1999 by ARMA.