Curious

[John_Clements]

I was noticing a curious similiarity between these two quotes:

“ if you are fearful, then you should not learn to fence. Because a despondent heart will always be defeated, regardless of all skill.”
- Fechtmeister Sigmund Ringeck, 1440

“He who wants to have honor in arms should have knowledge, fortitude and courage; if these he lacks, he’d better renounce.”
- Master Filippo Vadi, c. 1482

It makes sense that they might both see things this way, but it's an interesting similiarity.

[JeffGentry]

Hey John
I was in the U.S. Marine's and i was in the unit that breached the mine field's in the gulf war in 91 i was one of the first to move through that breach, and we were shot at and had artilery falling around us and there was absolutely no fear only confidence that i knew how to handle myself.

i said all that becaus i want to qualify what i am saying i think that Ringeck and Vadi are warrior's and that is something that we know if you cannot master and control your fear in a life and death fight or situation all the training in the world is worthless, combat is more than physical it is mostly mental and emotional(after all you are going to take a life up close and personal) they like all warrior's knew that and even at the time they were civilized men for there time, and i think that is a common thread in all warrior's through out time, even now in the military a majority of the time they teach in an ambush if your hit you still return fire and the rest charge the fire (“ if you are fearful, then you should not learn to fence. Because a despondent heart will always be defeated, regardless) this statement applies even to that training in modern time's, fear will only slow you down make you hesitate, it will casue you to lose that one step that will cost you your life, fear has no place in combat in any time.

This is just MHO based on some real life experience.

[John_Clements]

Yes, it's not the courage element that I was noticing (that's common inthe lieterature) so much as the part about not learning to fence without it.

[Gene Tausk]

Well, remember what Sgt. Larson said at the International Gathering -

"A warrior is someone who will close with the enemy."

I still think that is the best definition out there.


-------->>>>>>>>>>>>gene

[JeffGentry]

Gene
i totaly agree that is the best definition i have heard.

John

i think there is a plethora of these out there that are similar i think it has to do with the warrior spirit/mentality and attitude.

I could pull one of your's John from the page the ARMA way of doing thing's, because with out courage/audacity all the skill in the world is for nothing.

[philippewillaume]

Personally I think it is akin to the Japanese focus on the cut you are doing albeit a less mystical approach..


Der text aber von ainer lere.
Wer nach gat hawen, der darff sich kunst wenig fröwen. Haw nachent, waß du wilt, kain wechsel kumpt in dein schilt. Zu° koppff, zu° lybe die zeck nicht vermyde. Mitt gantzem lyb ficht, waß du strarck gerst zu° tryben.
Glosa.
Wenn du mitt dem zu°fechten zu° im kumpst, so solt du vff sein hew nicht sechen; noch warten, wie er die gegen dir trybt. Wann alle fechter, die do sechen vnd warten vff aines anderen hew vnnd wellend anderß nichten thon (13 v )dann ersetzen, die durffen sich söllicher kunst wenig fröwen; wann sy werden do by offt geschlagen.
Item, du solt mercken: alles, das du fechten wilt, das trüb mitt gantzer störck deines lybs! Vnnd haw im do mitt nahent ein zu° kopff vnd zu° lyb, so mag er vor deinem ort nicht durch wechslen. Vnd mitt dem haw solt du in den andbinden des schwerts dere zeckru°re nicht vermyden zu° der nächsten blößm di dir hernach in den fünff hewen vnd in anderen stucken vßgericht (14 r ) werden.

The text from another lesson
Who goes after the blow/who strikes after the coming together (gat=gaten=zusammenkommen), he may rejoice (froeven=vroeven=rejoice) little in his art, strike going forward is what you want, no change/change over will come to your shield. To the head, to the body the tick (as the parasite probably the point)he will not avoid/ give a miss. Fencing with all your body is (what) going straight to drive. (Or is what going straight to drive is).
Glose
When you come/fight at him for fencing, you are to neither dispose off/join with (sechen=zechen= fügen, verfügen, anordnen) his strike nor are you to wait what he is going to use against you. From all fencers those who dispose/join and wait for his opponent strike and are willing to do nothing else but displace. This one can only rejoice a little of his art because of that that they will be often defeated.
Item, you are to mark: everything that you fence, that you drive with all the strength of your body. And strike him in approaching (nahent=nahend) to the head or to the body. So that he cannot charge through (see durch wechslen) from your point. And with the binding of the sword you should not forget/miss the Engagement/attack at the nearest opening as it will be described hereafter in the fives strikes and other pieces.

This is the bit that John was referring to (that is the lichtanauer verse)
Das ist der text vnd ain lere von "vor" und "nach".
"Vor" vnd "nach", die zway dinck, synd aller kunst ain vrspring. "Schwöch" vnd "störck", "jn des" - daß wort - do mitt mörck. So magst (15 r ) du leren mitt kunst arbaiten vnd weren. Erschrickstu gern, kain fechten nimmer gelern-
This the text and one lesson about the Vor and the Nach.
Vor and Narch, the two things that are at the sources of all Arts. Strong and Weak, Indes that word with it (them) mark. So you may learn to work and protect with the Art. Should you be frightened easily, never will you learn fencing.

and that is the ringeck comment
Aber erschreckstu gern, so saltu die kunst des fechtens nitt lernen. Wann ain blöds, verzags hertz, das tu°t kain gu°t, wann es wirt by aller kunst geschlagen.
But if you are easily scared, you are hardly/adversely to learn the Art of fencing, for a dim witted, without heart will be defeated for all his knowledge.

I do not know what vadi says on those topics but I think that goes further that that not being afraid, I think Ringeck tesll us that you need to be comited in body and in mind in your strikes.

What do you think ?

[Aaron Pynenberg]

I think Philippe is on the right track. I'm not sure they were refrencing a general moral condition, but probably a dedication to the art form. It is painfully obvious to me that I always spar much better when I go with no regard for my foe's blade. I know that at some level I am paying attention to it, waiting for the right moment, or striking with the right angle.

Either way it always works best if you just forget about the other guy's sword and complete the techniques as best as you can. This is a much diffrent animal than flinging yourself at the other guy without proper form however.

[JeffGentry]

Hey Guy's

We had some new people come out last week to our group, i did notcice they were a little timid that is probably because they didn't know what they were doing, it did affect the way they did thing's though once some of them got comfortable with seeing the waster come at them they got over it and started to learn.

I know most uf us have seen this and seen those who got over it stay and flourish and those who didn't most likely moved on to something else.


Jeff

[Allen Johnson]

We've also seen people that show up and want to only do stuff they've seen in movies and anime and stuff and dont really have the "Fortitude" to learn. They usually leave pretty quick.

[Ryan Ricks]

there's nothing quite like seeing a big hickory waster coming at you, especially when the person behind it is a lot bigger than you.

ryan

[Jeffrey Hull]

Hopefully not too far astray from Euro arts, but this similarity is almost exact: In Bushido they speak almost exactly of "kokoro" ("heart" in English or "herz" auf Deutsch) in much the same way. Rather universal I guess. I suppose most cultures have similar ideas about having the heart to fight. JH

[JeffGentry]

Hmmmmm

Sound's similar to training with intent, or martial spirit, not everyone has it and it is not something you can teach.

Jeff

[Jaron Bernstein]

Hey Jeff the younger <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

I gotta disagree. I DO think that courage can be cultivated. I agree that pretty technique won't work without the "heart". But I believe that just as you can cultivate and develop your technique, you can ALSO cultivate and develop courage through what has been called "stress innoculation". Think of it as switching off the mental "just being normal" mode and turning on the "fighting" light switch in your head when the circumstances require it. Not everyone can do this at first, but it CAN be developed through training. Think of when we started waster free play vs. now, where we are much more comfortable (if not much more skilled...) at it.

On another note, I found the full German meyer text with all the illustrations. On the longsword is translated, but I think we can work with the ringen and rondel pictures alone as a good start.

[Ryan Ricks]

i totally agree, i think that's one reason we train.

first, we get used to the big wasters coming at us, then we get used to doing techniques against them faster and faster, then we get used to sparring and then even using steel blunts.

i can certainly imagine it worked similar historically, get used to training hard with intent, and then the real battle shouldn't be a huge leap.

think of it like learning to drive on the interstate, rockclimb, etc.

i think you can be afraid without being a coward, the distinction is the coward isn't willing to work with his fears.

for me, courage isn't "being un-scared out of the box," courage means you're brave enough face down your fears initially, and then over time you become acclimitized to them, and perhaps even begin to enjoy what once scared or made you nervous.

ryan

[JeffGentry]

hey guy's

Well i don't think courage can be cultivated, now it might seem like semantic's, i think confidence can be cultivated which is what Ryan i think is talking about when you know something and know it well you breed confidence and then if you have confidence you'll be ok, when you become afraid and lose your confidence and you do not over come the fear with your knowledge you will be defeated.

Just MHO Jeff