Curious

[Ryan Ricks]

maybe there is a fine line between the two? they certainly go hand in hand i think

ryan

[Aaron Pynenberg]

I'm with Jeff on this one. I think there is a diffrence between the two terms, I must say that expressing it in words is difficult though. It's really something you just sense. I do not think it can be trained or taught. Confidence can be developed through training, but as we all know sometimes even the best training in the world can fail you, what is left when that happens? -Courage and strength of personality

I hate to get out the Police stories, but there was a shooting in New York, where an Officer was shot in the Arm, it was not a fatal wound, but the Officer went into shock and died.

We are trained again and again, that we might be hit even if we are using all the training correctly, it just could occur, be ready for it and keep fighting! Aaron

[Jaron Bernstein]

Hi Aaron, <img src="/forum/images/icons/laugh.gif" alt="" />

How goes ARMA Appleton?

On developing courage:
I would suggest that even if you look at academy and in-service training, the "survival mindset" is something that trained and cultivated just as the skills are along with it (at least if it is good training). That is why you do the redman drills and the waterball gun force-on-force stuff. NOT because you automatically initially have the "heart" to do that kind of thing, but precisely so you can DEVELOP it.

Even in my own personal empty hand EMA training, I started out without skills, but more importantly without the "heart" and aggression to fight (or "courage" as here). But over the years I have deliberately and consciously developed and cultivated that trait (even if my skills sometimes lag behind my enthusiasm <img src="/forum/images/icons/laugh.gif" alt="" /> ).

See what I mean?

[Aaron Pynenberg]

Hello Jaron, ARMA Appleton is moving along, (although now we are competing with theNFL I think, had alot of no-shows at our last Sunday meet!)

Anyway I'm sorry man, I still disagree with your statement, but I think we are at odds over definitions of terms instead of the actual question.

I think that you have developed some confidence in yourself as a fighting man, and with it comes a level of ability. I think you would be hard pressed to argue however, that there are some people who are simply wired to be fighters. It's hard to define, and I think I touched on it in an earlier post.

Some terms I would associate with what I mean are: pride, aggression, determination, etc. There are some folks who are just good fighters naturally. That does not mean that one cannot train themselves in these areas. It's just that there are some who just start at diffrent levels.

I'm trying to give a clear-cut example, but I guess it is not a clear-cut question. The reason you have gone through the training is to develope your skills in these areas and give you confidence in those situations. Does this automatically give you the courage to use those skills--most certainly not!

It depends on the individual, which is in part why the Military spends so much time breaking individual traits, to form the individuals into a collective group. The group traits take on more priority than the individual, which could be lacking when the you-know-what-hits the fan.--see what I mean?

[JeffGentry]

Hey Jaron
I think it is the other way you had the heart and not the confidence and as you trained you gained the skill and then the confidence, the will and the heart i don't think is something you learn, either you have it or you don't.

Jeff

[Ryan Ricks]

i'd like to see how some other ARMA senior members weigh in on this debate, just out of curiosity

ryan

[JeanryChandler]

Personally, and this has been discussed before, I think a certain (small) percentage of people (say 10%) are naturally aggressive and good fighters, another 10% will never be fighters.

The rest are about equally split (40% each) between those who can learn the skills and develop the instincts but never really develop the true knack, and those who will become warrior like- given sufficient enivronmental stimulation.

This 'stimulation' though can be even more than what you get from military training. Generally I mean something more like prison or going through serious trauma like starvation and having to survive third world type conditions.

With regard to training I do frankly think it can be triggered by enough hard-core sparring with some people, but it has to be lots and lots of full contact , frankly painful sparring. I think that is one of the reasons, incidentally, that they still do airborne training- to instil this spirit. Current military doctrine doesn't call for a lot of combat drops, any more than it does for bloody beach assaults by marines, but both situations are good for training, for transforming minds to that other level.

Becoming "warrior-like" has a lot of drawbacks for a lot of people. Few of those who develop the proper 'warrior' instincts and mindset which is largely obsolete in this society (at least on the physical level) can handle it. Thats where you get the stereotype of the zen-like super calm badass. Thats how you have to be to keep it in check in a modern society.

Most people who develop this side though don't keep it in check so well. They have run -ins with the law, psychological issues, bad relationships, all kinds of problems.

I saw how a lot of people I grew up with adapted to going to public school in New Orleans in the 1970's and 1980's. You were under almost constant threat of violence. Some people became very dangerous warriors, (and most of them are dead or in prison now) quite a few fought back and in the process gained a harder edge which they have had to deal with for the rest of their life. A lot of people just became victims. Sometimes that is the easier route. The smartest people frankly learned how to fade into the background and avoid both fighting and being a victim. Those are the ones who came out of it best in their lives and were best able to adapt to life in the modern world.

Being a true warrior is something of an anacrhonism these days... it makes me think of a sigline Jake Norwood was using from conan, something like "civilized people are ruder than barbarians because they can insult people without getting their head split open."

Just my thoughts.

JR

[Aaron Pynenberg]

JR, I agree with you on some of the points you made. It's interesting that you bring up the criminal element because I was going to touch on this as well in my earlier post.

I see a diffrence in the psychotic/mentally defective and the courageous. I know what you mean in terms of societies values in relation to a fighter. I think it's important to talk about the fact that fighting prowess dosen't always equate with courage also. I have witnessed plenty of fights where the courageous thing to do, would have been to walk away!

There is clearly some moral responsibility and core values that I associate with this as well. It gets back to the Chivilric Ideals that our ancestors developed. I guess it's the heart, the soul, and the body working together to form a morally responsible, capable and able will.

[JeffGentry]

Hey Jeanry

Well it is kind of like the texas A&amp;M shooter, or Tim Mcvay, like Aaron said about the criminal element even in the time period we are discussing some people are what i would call a fighter not a warrior i.e the moral code of most who consider themselve's warrior's is much diffrent than that of some one who is just a fighter they do it purely to survive and don't care who they hurt or kill it is all about them. Again it is about heart and being compassionate and still able to fight and harm other's if and when necessary.

Is MHO, maybe i am warped.

Jeff

[JeanryChandler]

I agree with you in one sense. In ancient tribal societies, a sociopath was often considered a menace. You can read the Icelandic sagas to find out that among the Norse of the viking era, Berzerkers were despised and driven away as outcasts (or killed), because they were the type of people who were ruthless indescriminate fighters and tended to pick duels with people for personal gain. Even among Vikings, this was considered unacceptable.

However, in Feudal society, frankly the honest definition of the typical knight or lord wasn't that different from the above. These were people who wouldn't perhaps normally harm their own oath-companions; but tenants, foreigners, neighbors, erstwhile allies, anyone in the way of personal advancement would readily be crushed underfoot and butchered. IMO, the concept of Chivalry as understood by many people today is one which doesn't hold up to historical scrutiny (beyond the tradition of ransoming peers rather than killing them.)

My belief is that the courage required to manfully face grave personal danger and fight is something which is divorced from morality, whether it should be or not. There were plenty of very courageous Waffen SS officers in WW II, and highly courageous Soviet commisars on the other side of the fence. Neither was probably what you would consider a chivalrous or moral or even nice person though. Same with a lot of knights.

Personally, I believe a high standard of ethics is important, but I do not project my own morals back into history.

My real point though is that a warrior ethic, whether linked to good or bad behavior, is hard to reconcile with modern life, once you have faced danger many many times it is difficult to swallow petty insults from worms, and I think it is frankly harder to control your temper even when you should. It is something you have to get used to. That is why humility is so important.

Of course, in the "old days", as in that sigline, I don't
think either good or bad people suffered insults from anybody. I've read a lot of history and haven't run across many knights "turning the other cheek". Whether that is a good thing or not, I cannot say. I think I would have fit in better though I probably would not have lived to this ripe old age <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />


JR

[JeanryChandler]

I would like to add this. WMA studied seriously as ARMA does, is a martial art, and there are consequenses to learning any martial art. Even studying just longsword fencing is going to affect the way your "warrior spirit" evolves in a street fight, or even in a confrontation.

If you do succeed in developing this spirit to some extent, it will effect the way you react to aggression. You are actually training yourself to meet aggression head on (especially if you are studying in the German school <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" /> ).

The problem is, in our society, in the workplace, on the street, in social situations of various kinds, people will behave in an aggressive and hostile manner toward you, often without even realizing it, and usually without meaning it for real. Once you have learned to meet aggression head on, your reactions to this kind of provocation may change.

I believe you need to be prepared for that as a result of WMA training just as much as you did if you were training to be a boxer or learning kung fu.


J

[Jaron Bernstein]

Hi Aaron
<img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

cc: Jeff the younger


On the plus side, ARMA Columbus has actually grown, at last. A whole bunch of Ohio Weselyn University students have joined. We are feeling overwhelmed with people, but in a good way.

You wrote: "I think that you have developed some confidence in yourself as a fighting man, and with it comes a level of ability."

But my point is that the confidence you saw was quite absent 7 or 8 years ago. It had to be consciously developed. The actual techniques is my personal vehicle for developing the confidence, but my main point is that it something that CAN be developed. Some people have more and some less to start with, and develop at different rates, but IMO courage CAN be cultivated. Except for a very few people, it isn't a kind of "either you have it or you don't" dynamic that I sense you and Jeff think it is.

You wrote: " I think you would be hard pressed to argue however, that there are some people who are simply wired to be fighters. It's hard to define, and I think I touched on it in an earlier post. Some terms I would associate with what I mean are: pride, aggression, determination, etc. There are some folks who are just good fighters naturally."

Ah, nature's athletes. I know what you mean. Those folks don't require much training. They are predisposed towards courage and fighting ability. I am talking more about what I once was...the kid who go picked last for gym class <img src="/forum/images/icons/smirk.gif" alt="" /> .

The first full contact and full intent EMA sparring I did I was scared to death. I got trounced. Now, I still get trounced on when overmatched (although now I can hold my own more often and even occassionally win), but more importantly, I am now COMFORTABLE in that circumstance. And that being comfortable was a cultivated and developed thing. That is why I think courage can be developed. Also on a similar theme, I have seen my spouse in her (very unmartial) academic politics go from rather meek and tepid to very assertive in her bureaucratic maneuverings in the ivory tower of her school over 3 years.

you wrote: "That does not mean that one cannot train themselves in these areas. It's just that there are some who just start at diffrent levels."

I agree with this 100%. All I am saying is that almost everyone can develop and improve their courage, just as much as their skills. Often the 2 coincide.

Aaron wrote: "I'm trying to give a clear-cut example, but I guess it is not a clear-cut question. The reason you have gone through the training is to develope your skills in these areas and give you confidence in those situations. Does this automatically give you the courage to use those skills--most certainly not!"

That is why in addition to just training the skills (look, this is an arm bar...), you also do the added stress training of redman, waterballs or for ARMA, weapon sparring. That is the mechanism by which you develop your courage, even when you find that your carefully trained pretty techniques don't work in "real time" nearly as well <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" /> .

It doesn't seem that we are in that much disagreement.

Be well,
J.

[Aaron Pynenberg]

This debate boils down to the diffrence in defining some key words. I am still not confinced that COURAGE can be cultivated or somehow instilled. I think I will just try and say it with these examples:

-A climber has the confidence and ability to climb a mountain, but has an accident and gets his arm trapped in a rock-instead of dying, he has the courage to cut off his arm and save his life.

-A state trooper is in a car chase with a woman, she drives onto a tall bridge stops the car and runs towards the edge, jumping off. The Trooper chases after her and has the courage to reach out and grab her by the arm, (at great risk to himself) and saves her life.

-Your Boss tells you to fudge a Police report, you have the courage to tell him no.

-A kid who is smaller and weaker has the courage to play a physical game, even though he is picked last.

-A guy who does not have a natural ability to fight takes up a martial skill based on fighting!

I agree that confidence, skill sets, ability-all these are developed, cultivated etc.. but courage is something in the soul, it cannot be changed or altered through some kind of exercises--Aaron

[Stacy Clifford]

Aaron,

I think those last two examples are more about determination than courage. I wouldn't have called myself courageous four years ago when John Clements first put a padded sword in my hand and started wailing on me. He thought my attitude was too meek and I wouldn't last, but I have always had a "hang in there, it gets better eventually" attitude, and it served me well enough to eventually make Senior Free-Scholar. I think courage is more a thing of the moment, action in the face of immediate or inevitable consequences. If you take your sword to class, you'll probably go home a the end of the day. If you take it into a fight, your chances of that suddenly drop pretty steeply. Courage is what allows you to carry yourself past the point of no return, whether you're risking losing your life or destroying something you've worked for, like your career. Determination is what enables you to knowingly approach the point of no return. I think when the masters say that you should not learn fencing if you have a despondent heart, it is under the assumption that you may inevitably reach that point of no return (a real fight) at which courage is required, because you are training in a practical art with the expectation that you might have to use it. I don't think they mean despondent as innately lacking courage, but innately lacking the determination that develops courage. They are saying that you shouldn't bother to learn such an art if you can never overcome your flight (or curl up in a ball) reflex when you're confronted with the situation for which the art exists. I could probably say more here because this thought still feels incomplete, but lunch is over, so back to work.

[Aaron Pynenberg]

Stacy, I agree with most of what you said, except this: determinatino develops courage. I would suggest that it is exactly the opposite. Courage developes determination. I had to bust out the old Webster dictionary,(which I keep on hand as you may have noticed I am a terrible speller), anyway it looks like this on paper:

Courage= (heart) the quality of being brave; valor.
Confidence=trust, reliance in self, assurance, belief in ones own abilities, the belief that another will keep a secret, or used to swindle.
Determination=a firm intention, resolute, firmness of purpose

I think like Jeff said earlier it may boil down to semantics, but I think Courage is such a strong word that we have to be careful, and as far as the words said by the masters, we should also keep in mind that during their time and in their context these words may have had a little diffrent meaning as they do now.

I have been in some life and death situations with some of my fellow Officers, (especially on swat) and I will say that courage is palpable, almost a condition of being, Its not something that can be trained. Believe me, we have had some that have not been able to continue with us, because they, as you said "were wired to flee instead of fight" I know it sounds derogatory, but it is a fact of our human condition.

As far as ARMA goes I have not met anyone connected with the Organization that I think has not had some level of courage, let's face it when training with intent you just have to posess a certain amount of it or you wouldn't be here!