Curious

[JeanryChandler]

If you read the stories around the congressional medal of honor winners of this nation, (which are available online, here for example
http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/moh1.htm
) reading between the lines a bit I think you can realise that courage can be a form of madness.

As for this nature versus nurture question about the origins of courage, I guess it depends how you look at it. Standardized training will not always develop it, but enough fighting will, IMO. They found the same things out in tests on animals, enough stimulus of the right kind and they will become ferocious, although there is always some fluctuation from genetics.


JR

[TimSheetz]

HI Guys,

I had a nice long run down on what I thought courage was and what other traits link to it.... but a computer glitch lost it and I do not have the COURAGE to rewrite it .

The short version is that I do not think that we can draw a line and say , "this is courage" because so much determines it. We can probably draw a line around some behaving courageously.

Courage really is making a choice. Circumstances matter. The consequences matter. I guy may run away screaming like a littel girl if someone tries to mug him with a knife... but if his wife and kid are with him, he may stay and face his adversary to protect them. So he has courage in one instance but not the other? Why? Consequences.

In high stress situations like combat, doing something is usually better than doing nothing. Training equips people with action to take when under certain stressful circumstances. When they used to freeze, they now take action (often with courage).

That is a short snippet of what I had written before!

Peace,

Tim

[Jay Vail]

In high stress situations like combat, doing something is usually better than doing nothing. Training equips people with action to take when under certain stressful circumstances. When they used to freeze, they now take action (often with courage).

Yes, Tim. I think that's quite true. I believe that people are more likely to freeze if they have no training for dealing with a situation. This is not always so. There is the occasional exception.

[JeffGentry]

hey everyone
I think that there are just those among us then and now, who no matter how much training they have just don't have the intestinal fortitude to do what is necessary when it come's to the real deal, we had a guy in my platoon when we went to the persian gulf, he was with our plt for about 2-3 week's before we left to go to Saudi, when we got there we were equiping off the Mari-time prepositioning ship's, we were at the port for about 2 week's, about a week after we got there standing gaurd one night he shot himself in the calf he had the "courage and confidence" to do that so that he didn't have to face the enemy.

He was nothing more than a coward.

I think that the "Master's" also saw or new people of this nature and there is no point wasting your time training those type's of people to fence or fight, IMHO your spinning your wheel's it is an excercise in futility. When it come's right down to the real thing some people just don't have what it take's regardless.

In high stress situations like combat, doing something is usually better than doing nothing. Training equips people with action to take when under certain stressful circumstances. When they used to freeze, they now take action (often with courage).

like i alway's say do something even if it's wrong, i totaly agree with you on that Tim it's better to do something than to just stand there, that is the point of training to equip people with the judgement/skill's to do what they need to.


Jeff

[Stacy Clifford]

Stacy, I agree with most of what you said, except this: determinatino develops courage. I would suggest that it is exactly the opposite. Courage developes determination.

Aaron,

You've got a point here, but I think this one can go in either direction really. Courage can certainly give you the determination necessary to complete a goal, but I do believe that a fearful man with the determination to conquer himself can develop courage where he had none before. I think that may be the key - conquering yourself. If you have natural courage, you don't need to, but if not, then you are your own biggest obstacle.

Tim brings up a couple of interesting points. I mentioned consequences myself, but Tim's right that the level of consequences factors into your decision as well. There's a big difference between losing your pride and losing your bride. I also agree that courage can fail simply due to lack of knowledge. If you don't know how to react to a violent situation (fight, bluff, negotiate - all may require courage), then you fall back to that other handy dandy instinct that doesn't require any mental effort beyond avoiding obstacles. Even if you do know how to react though, you still have a choice between fight or flight, and choosing to employ your skill is where courage comes in. The more viable your other options are, the more likely you are to find the courage to choose them, I think. And yes, confidence in your own abilities does factor in here, but so does sheer level of desperation. I don't think we'll ever be able to pin down all this psychological stuff to one definition because the human mind is so flexible and the variety of circumstance too broad, but as it applies to our art I think we're in the same ballpark with the masters on this one.

[JeanryChandler]

The more viable your other options are, the more likely you are to find the courage to choose them, I think. And yes, confidence in your own abilities does factor in here, but so does sheer level of desperation.

This post was very well written, and you raise a good point. I agree that courage can develop. From my experiences at McDonough #15, I could see how a group of weak hippy kids transformed into tough scrappers, or at least hard nosed survivors. Some couldn't make the transition, but many if not most did. Certainly not all of these were naturally

Ultimately I think that the two arguments, nature versus nurture if you will, are both true to an extent. Some people ARE born cowards and some people are born ferociously corageous. But most are somewhere inbetween and can adapt to different types of environments.

I would also add to your thoughts though that as your range of viable options becomes broader, the potential to misjudge can become greater. Especially because it can be a fine line between reacting appropriately and overreacting or underreacting.

For example, in this pride versus bride scenario, if you are walking down the street and someome makes a remark to your spouse which is borderline threatening and certainly inappropriate, you have to make a decision between reacting with an aggressive posture, which may quell the situation instantly, or by ignoring the comment which might be the safest route, or on the other hand might invite further aggression. Either approach, or some middle ground, could be the wrong decision or the right one, depending on the cirucumstances.

This is a judgement call I have personally had to make several times, and it is something which depends on a variety of sometimes subtle factors. Are we close to my own home or in some strange area. Am I armed or not, and do they appear to be armed or not. Are we in an isolated area or near witnesses and traffic. What time of the day or night is it? Can the person or pepole I am with react appropriately to a dangerous situation. Does the antagonist in question seem bent on further escalation or not?

The point is, I think the more options you feel like you have, from previous experiences and from training, I believe the more likely you can be to make an aggressive decision, partially because you have the option, and partialy because you may know from experience that the more aggressive response may be the best option. It can depend on so many factors. My experiences here in New Orleans have led me to believe that a more aggressive response is often more appropriate here where crime is more economically oriented, while in LA, where there are territorial gangs, the opposite was true.

JR

[Aaron Pynenberg]

As you can all tell I love this topic, and I think everyone has valid points, but..... We have been talking alot about training and scenarios etc. What about the people who have no training at all, in dealing with the given situation and are instantly successful. And by succseful I mean they survive or overcome, grow etc.. What was it that allowed them to do this? Stacy is right in that human conditions and emotions are hard to define and explian and they can change throughout a person's life given stimulus and all of that, but if there was a definition to apply I would say it was an inner courage the person has always possessed, just not needed or used.

I also think coward is a little strong, but certainly I have known some people that I would fit into this cat.

Well, I was going to say this alittle bit better, but alas I have run out of time- Good discussion though, am enjoying it quite a bit- Aaron

[Jaron Bernstein]

I suppose that some people (a very small %) will simply never have the courage to face a challenging scenario regardless of training. But I still believe that the vast majority of people can develop it. Some people it may be very slow to develop and require far more training, but I am just saying that it can be done with enough effort. Dare I use the infamous "bell curve" with those who have no courage and lots of it at both ends and most folks in the middle?

"-A climber has the confidence and ability to climb a mountain, but has an accident and gets his arm trapped in a rock-instead of dying, he has the courage to cut off his arm and save his life.

-A state trooper is in a car chase with a woman, she drives onto a tall bridge stops the car and runs towards the edge, jumping off. The Trooper chases after her and has the courage to reach out and grab her by the arm, (at great risk to himself) and saves her life.

-Your Boss tells you to fudge a Police report, you have the courage to tell him no."

Point taken. I would agree that those things require an inborn courage that no amount of training will cultivate.



"I agree that confidence, skill sets, ability-all these are developed, cultivated etc.. but courage is something in the soul, it cannot be changed or altered through some kind of exercises"

As you define it above, I would agree.

Jaron