Historicity and Continuity

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J.Amiel_Angeles
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Historicity and Continuity

Postby J.Amiel_Angeles » Wed Sep 22, 2004 5:26 am

As a long time admirer and follower of ARMA (but first time poster) I have often been impressed by the high level of historical scholarship the organization uses to reconstruct European martial arts. I have often thought that it was this high-level of scholarship which gave ARMA the most credibility when it came to claims of historicity as compared to other groups.

However, recently, I have had the pleasure of meeting a local follower of a Japanese kenjutsu ryu with a very long pedigree. He was interested and respectful of WMA, but raised what I thought was a valid question.

How would the ARMA address the question of continuity? To be specific, is the sword art of the ARMA reinvention, recreation or rediscovery or can one give it the stamp of true authenticity? How would you address the issue of 'personal interpretation' versus 'this is what they really did?'

I note that many such historical martial arts (like kenjutsu) place a high premium on continuity and my friend commented that this may be used to criticize WMA (and from what I've seen it is used). And sometimes, I note, this obsession for continuity has led to some cockamamie claims in an effort to create an aura of legitimacy and continuity.

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GaryGrzybek
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Re: Historicity and Continuity

Postby GaryGrzybek » Wed Sep 22, 2004 7:17 am

First, no one studying this art can claim true autheticity because we have no living lineage to gain our knowledge and skills from. We can only take whatever information there is available within the historical sources and do the best we can to translate them. This means of course, not only trying to figure out the text portion but the images that often accompany them. So, not only do we have issues with language barriers but also with combat techniques that were written in rhrymes and riddles to hide them from a potential enemy. The historical images themselves cause a further problem because they may not always be drawn with total accuracy. This of course causes further distortion when we take them literally. The best we can do is try and come as close as possible to what they were doing using all of the resources available. This means comparing the various sources provided by each master and time period, breaking down the techniques and testing them in the most accurate environment we can provide. The bottom line is that we are all just students in this art and we have only scratched the surface. There's constant rediscovery and what we think is right today could change tomorrow and that's what makes it exciting. From a personal standpoint, I prefer this over some other martial arts where the master or sensei (spelling?) is always right and should never be questioned. Where's the fun in that? <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />
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JeffGentry
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Re: Historicity and Continuity

Postby JeffGentry » Wed Sep 22, 2004 8:03 am

Hey guy's

Yea i have to agree with Gary you see alot of people on here say thing's such as this is how i interprute this , and this is my opinion, because we are all relearning and reinventing and trying to learn this art pretty much each person on there own and i think ARMA has laid down a good structure to do it, JC has given us some good drill's with the armatura.

As for continuity we can only translate and try our best to follow the text as best we can and talk to each other as friend's and sounding board's to see if i interprut a text the same as you or 3 other people and then cross reference other text so we can all try to get as close to what we agree is "right", there are those who do have a favorite Master and have done extensive study of a specific author and use his teaching and philosphy as a base for the way they do and interprute thing's, and some do use the fact that there is not a definate "linage" to try to undermine what we do and know, if what we are doing is not right most will be more than happy to let someone prove physicly that we are wrong if they can show us where our mistake is in any technique/technique's, and not many people are willing to suit up and grab a sword and instruct us, just like not many were willing to show Bruce Lee his art was wrong and did not work, and when 1-2 did they were proven wrong.

As far as i know this is the only martial art that in order to advance in "rank", one must face his fellow's with waster's, padded sparring weapon's, and steel blunt's (at higher level's), in a short peiod of time 1 hour if i am not mistaken, they will face 40 bout's or more against diffrent weapon's and level's of skill in his opponent some of whom he has never fought or at least not fought them with the weapon they are using, which i think is the real proving ground for our "system", and technique's, i know of no other "martial art" that does this and that is i think what make's this art and ARMA viable and more accurate even though we do not have a well defined and traceable lineage.

I realy am glad you raised this question in the manner that you did it is something for all of us to think about and evaluate the way we train and interpret the text to keep us all honest, it is easy to become complacent in our view of how and why we do thing's as we do and forget what we are doing and how we go about it.

Jeff
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Mike Cartier
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Re: Historicity and Continuity

Postby Mike Cartier » Wed Sep 22, 2004 8:56 am

Continuity is a straw man that TMA's like to use to cut down anything not traditional and steeped in lineage.
The bottom line is once an art is not activilty involved in being used in combat on a frequent basis it loses it base.

Mixed Martial Arts clearly showed the pitfalls associated with Lineage, lineage requires a continuous school pushing the art, well the problem is that to keep a school successful one often has to water down the art somewhat to accomodate people. This can also be clearly seen now effecting BJJ in some ways, as they transition to a huge art they trim down the more dangerous aspects. All arts go through these phases. Its more how you train than what lineage you follow, if you have a lineage and don't spar you will suck at sparring which is not fighting but the closest we can get.

Arts with lineage can suck, arts that don't have lineage can suck, arts that obsess with combative practicality are great but they too can lose thier focus as circumstances dictate.
In the end its just like in BJJ or Wrestling, the truth is on the mat, same in weapons fighting, the truth is on the field.
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Gene Tausk
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Re: Historicity and Continuity

Postby Gene Tausk » Wed Sep 22, 2004 11:15 am

You have raised some good issues and I think some of them have been partially answered.

I think the answer lies in what you are asking - how does ARMA address the issue of continuity? The answer is: we do not. We state that there is no recognized continuity of sword styles from the middle ages to the present day. (In fact, I believe I wrote an essay on this very topic!)

However, we see this as a strength, not a liability. We view this as an opportunity to re-discover our fighting heritage. To us, this is what makes WMA exciting (or at least one of the aspects that makes it exciting).

To answer your question of how does it make it authentic? Well, we are in a constant process of exploration and discovery. We are finding that the more questions we answer, the more questions we have. Once again, for us this is exciting.

We do have some answers which can be verified through the "court of combat" as we insist that our members engage in sparring to prove themselves. We believe our sparring systems are safe, yet accurate and certainly require skill on the part of the players. If a person is performing a technique, yet finds himself getting hit time and again by an opponent, it is a pretty reasonable assumption that the technique is not valid, as none of the texts we study advise getting yourself killed.

If a person is looking for continuity, then obviously ARMA, or for that matter, WMA are not for them. And, this is fine. Different people have different expectations from the martial arts they study. However, I do not accept a proposition that "older" or "continuous" is better.

I totally agree, however, that there are some "cockamamie" claims to continuity (also addressed in my essay!) which leads to reasonable people scratching their heads in disbelief. However, ARMA in no way endorses these claims.


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John_Clements
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Re: Historicity and Continuity

Postby John_Clements » Wed Sep 22, 2004 11:33 am

Hi,

That’s a good question and one I’ve discussed before. I can’t reply at the moment in detail with the references as I would like, and others have already raised many good comments, but I feel the question itself may come from something of a false premise. Within Japanese and many other Asian martial arts, pedigree and continuity and tradition of extant transmission are often a great concern. For us however, without "living traditions" or any "surviving lineage" of Medieval and Renaissance fighting methods, and having to reconstruct and recover extinct combative systems, in exploring Renaissance martial arts we can focus exclusively on understanding how and why they did what they did.

For this we are fortunate not to be distracted by centuries of peacetime classroom alteration and civilianization watering methods down. W can rely instead on dozens of highly detailed technical volumes (often highly illustrated…in color no less) on proven principles, concepts and techniques. We have study guides and instructional fighting manuals by men who actually fought and killed during the age. These masters are telling us in their own words essentially, “Here is how you do it” and “Here is how to study when I am not around to teach you.” Therein is our preserved knowledge. Therein lies our authenticity. This is why the incredible richness of our Western martial heritage is so impressive and so many are now astonished at its efficacy, simplicity, and sophistication.

This reliance on extra-somatic information (i.e., “book learning”), btw, is itself a part of our very “tradition” in the West (and our source literature tells us of its importance for martial arts study). Of course, the problem and challenge for us, then, is in the area of translation and interpretation, followed by accurate understanding of application.

I should also point out that Renaissance martial arts are approached from a different cultural context than are its Asian equivalents (and I might note, one that is far less alien to Western civilization). What’s really exciting is that it’s not that hard. Renaissance martial arts does not suffer form any obsession with aesthetics and hierarchy or accumulation of titles and rankings. It follows an empirical dialectic. It doesn't involve mysticism and doesn’t take decades of esoteric effort under secret masters and hidden schools to learn the effectiveness of legitimate combat techniques. It’s not something spoon fed only to an enlightened and worthy few, but presented as a whole to be considered at length. In the process it still demands athleticism, self-discipline, and a martial spirit.

Additionally, we certainly don’t have the "continuity" problem experienced by that old children’s game of “Rumor” where one child whispers a short sentence in another’s ear and that child then whispers in the next and so on and so on down the line until the last child in the class stands up to speaks aloud the last whisper whereby everyone then laughs at how much it changed from the one they heard and the original. The same thing occurs over the generations with fighting arts that are removed from the necessity of survival to be taught in safe civilian classrooms or “preserved” by families and secret societies who have not used then in earnest for centuries. As I often explain in my seminars, the same thing can be witnessed in showing a dance routine to someone, then having them take someone else out and show it to them and so on and so on. With each passing transmission there is minute change and personalization no matter how hard they try to keep the "authenticity" consistent. It’s the nature of verbal information and movement patterns that they don’t remain constant. They evolve. The farther they move from the exigency of the original environment that necessitated their development, the less such teachings reflect the realities of survival in combat. As any anthropologist will tell you, this is the nature of the oral tradition. Everything not documented and recorded in detail and studied from books is subject to change over time as it is passed on---dances, songs, poems…and martial arts. But, when our sources are descriptive documents and technical manuals, we largely avoid that problem. After all, no one alive today knows exactly how warriors from the 13th to 17th centuries (European or Asian) truly fought like on foot against sword and spear and dagger or armors, etc. We must all to a degree merely theorize.

So, knowing this, in ARMA we try to approach our craft with the same mindset and concern that our historical source texts describe. Is our craft complete? No, its investigation is really in its infancy. It’s continually being rediscovered and reclaimed this very moment even as I write. I feel that act is itself part of carrying on and preserving a tradition.

JC
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J.Amiel_Angeles
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Re: Historicity and Continuity

Postby J.Amiel_Angeles » Wed Sep 22, 2004 9:25 pm

To continue to another, related, question:

If in sparring you find or devise a technique which works but is not supported by any of the available data would that be included in the syllabus? Where would that move fall under in terms of historicity? Has this ever come up?

As a professional historian, I find this aspect of the WMA to be very interesting.

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JeffGentry
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Re: Historicity and Continuity

Postby JeffGentry » Wed Sep 22, 2004 10:45 pm

Hey J.Ameil
If in sparring you find or devise a technique which works but is not supported by any of the available data would that be included in the syllabus? Where would that move fall under in terms of historicity? Has this ever come up?


I think this question was answered 420 year's or so ago By Joachim Meyer in his 1570 fight book.

"indeed similarly all grows onward from here only in furthering this art to more flowful and useful levels, and from other sections move onward to find the art, and behave according to the underlying differences, thus you have firmly wrapped this art into another and thus more easily and lightly grasped it by being prepared for different views."

This is only a part of what he said it does make the point i think if you wish to read the whole, here is the site.

http://schielhau.org/Meyer.p15.html

it is the last paragrph and there are many other time's he tell's the reader that he will learn more than what the book say's through practice and study, and these are the basic concept's and technique's.

i doubt that anything we come up with is totaly original and was not done 400 year's ago not every move or technique is recorded in print that is the purpose of testing it in sparring to see if it you can survive with the technique, We also do alot of study of historical art work to see if we can find similar thing's there.

the way we do thing's is realy an all encompassing sytem of research, archeology, anthropology, historic art work, military science, metallurgy, linguistic's, it realy is a very large endevor to learn this art, i personaly am not college educated and have learned more doing the research and reading than i ever thought i would about art and method's of printing, language and it's evolution.

at time's i wonder how much more information i can take in before my head explode's, it is enjoyable though and extremely fascinating.

Jeff
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Allen Johnson
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Re: Historicity and Continuity

Postby Allen Johnson » Wed Sep 22, 2004 11:16 pm

It's for this very reason that there is an evolution of weapons and fighing forms. Not so much an evolution as going from innefective to more effective as many sport fencers advocate--but being able to change weapons and styles as armor and the ways battles were fought, changed. Even the progress of civilization where it became more and more punnishable by law to hurt someone changes martial arts and weapon styles.
We read various places in the historical manuals that reffer to how things were done "back then" but they are different now. So at some point they had to change from what they were taught in order to adapt or just through self discovery.

I also believe that there is little that we can come up with that wasnt done sometime before. I doubt there is much that we can cover in our brief 70-80 years of life (and probably much shorter when you are talking about studying swordplay) that wasnt covered in the previous thousand years of battle.
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Re: Historicity and Continuity

Postby John_Clements » Thu Sep 23, 2004 1:19 pm

I think we all have to continually remind ourselves we are not using these skills nor even studying them for our survival or genuine and immediate self-defense needs. For that matter we are not performing the actual historical teachings but pursuing an ever-improving approximation of them as best we can. In that sense, they are tentative. Unless we can time travel or suddenly start fighting for real today, I think we must always keep this factor in mind when we interpret and practtice any technique.

Unfortunately, too many people still seem to either delude themselves that they "truly know their Master's secrets" or else just drown in role-play fantasy illusions. Either way they miss the reality of the subject.

JC
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philippewillaume
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Re: Historicity and Continuity

Postby philippewillaume » Mon Sep 27, 2004 5:34 am

Hello, I think it is a bit a &amp;#8220;wrong&amp;#8221; question.
I am not sure there is an historically correct way. There seems to have been a lot of cross-polenisation between style and master specific additions so.

The more I study Ringeck (I work with one principle source only), the more I think it is all about principles
I believe that any given technique is more a demonstration of the underlying principle and than a technique per se.
So from one example in the manual there is a multitude of applications.

This is where my approach and Arma&amp;#8217;s differs. If it is not in Ringeck and done by the good guy, I do not use it. (There is pro and cons for each approaches, and it has been discussed to death, as far as I am concerned, I believe we need all differents approaches and we should be working more together)

So I would say that you question fall into two possibilities

Either the &amp;#8220;new thing that works&amp;#8221; is in fact a variation of a given principle (so it is not really new so to speak).

Or the new thing does not figure in a given manual (though I am pretty sure that it does appear in one of the other), let us the kronhaw basically you are parrying in a kron and strike your opponent.
I could tell you that it seems only to work but in fact it does not really and that Ringeck has in fact a counter to that.
I could tell you as well that parrying in kron is contrary to lichtanauer teachings as you are taking your point off the face/upper body of your opponent.

But the kronhauw is described by Meyer, and I am pretty sure that he knew what he was talking about (and so is Ringeck for that matter). So is one master better than the other then.
May be, may be not, I think the difference is in that you organise your fight so that it is or it is not a valid option.
I cannot see logically (and I never seen it in practice) how a kronhaw can be usefull, if you stay true to ringecks principle (read those I have understood).
However I think I have made it clear that I believe it is a viable in certain conditions and I am pretty sure that Jonh, shane or jeff use it successfully in what I would call a meyer context.

And that is what is we share in common, in my opinion, we all are trying to organise the fight according to certain concepts.
I believe that those concepts are contained in each manual and if I am not mistaken arma has developed their own from different manuals.

So to summarize, I think that if ringeck do not use the kronhaw it is because his system does not create a situation favourable to it&amp;#8217;s deployment and if you are trying to recreate Ringeck style you should do it in such way.
If there is something that works and is not a principles mentioned by the manual I think the interpretation of the system needs top be re-evaluated (in the mono-manual context)
One Ringeck to bring them all In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.

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Matt Bailey
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Re: Historicity and Continuity

Postby Matt Bailey » Mon Sep 27, 2004 7:55 am

Mr. Angeles

First I would tell him that, fortunately, fencing is NOT rocket science. Brain surgery sometimes, but not rocket science <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

I would tell him there are dozens of manuals written in fairly clear language, describing systems that are meant to be simple and usable, not obscure or complex.

I would remind him that we DO have living traditions of European martial arts, that while not Medieval, do represent a certain continuity in basic concepts we can draw on.

I would tell him that thousands of people have been testing European weapons and armor for decades, in bouting, test cutting, etc, and such testing and research is more and more being done in a scientific manner, giving us a clear picture of what European swords were like and what they could do, and how they behave when you actually try to fence with him.

I also would invite him to spar against European weapons with whatever weapon's simulators are appropriate, to get a taste of what the movements are like. Respectfully of course, since he himself is respectful, and carefully explain what you did or were trying to do in the bouting, so he realizes you're more than someone who is good at bashing around.

Finally, I would have to mention that he has not been in a swordfight, you have not been in a swordfight, few if any persons living have ever been in a swordfight or even seen one, so we're all in the same boat in regards to ignorance of what an actual swordfight is like.
"Beat the plowshares back into swords. The other was a maiden aunt's dream"-Robert Heinlein.

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John_Clements
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Re: Historicity and Continuity

Postby John_Clements » Mon Sep 27, 2004 2:13 pm

Hi
I don't think using the Kron to defend is contrary to his principle of keeping the point on. That is a general rule not an absolute. The Kron defense is consistant with his other instruction to maintain blade contact. Each rule has its place.

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Jaron Bernstein
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Re: Historicity and Continuity

Postby Jaron Bernstein » Mon Sep 27, 2004 9:44 pm

One question I would raise is about whether WMA should be informed by EMA.

There are only so many ways that the human body can be thrown and only so many ways to swing a sharpened piece of metal, in any time place or culture.

I have seen many WMA and EMA techniques that look quite similar, if not identical.

That said, the gear is different as is the cultural context and that does produce differences.

So, let us say that the extant WMA texts can take us from A to B but not quite to "C" for an explanation, then we have some options:

1. Experiment a lot with the extant manuals and period era equipment (or good replicas) and try to puzzle out "C". I get a sense that this can lead to great and illuminating debate but may not give us a definitive answer.

or

2. We can look at an EMA in a similar situation and see if they have a "C" they currently use. We DO have to allow for the distortions that John C. wisely mentions (the "rumor" game of poorly transmitted things, different gear and cultural context, etc.), but if we do try to factor in those distortions, should we look at how an EMA goes from A to B to C as a possible answer for our WMA search for "C"?

Any thoughts?

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Re: Historicity and Continuity

Postby philippewillaume » Tue Sep 28, 2004 3:45 am

Hello john
I think I mislead you; I am not after the kron being or not part of lichty or the kron being worthwhile to do.

What I was trying to get at that it is and it not it all depends of your understanding/ application of the system you have chosen.

As I said I am pretty sure that for you or Jeff (who I think works a lot with meyer) it does not break the principles and is a perfectly valid and safe strike. It is even in the meyer&amp;#8217;s manual

However, If you place yourself on a Ringeck standpoint, you are breaking the rules since in defence you are supposed to use only the 5 master strike and the two abzetzen.
And it is quite clear that the kron is neither a masterhaw nor an abzetsen and that it is one of the four positions we should fight from.
There is one technique namely against the kron and any technique when the opponent raises their arms will work (ie winden, hangen).

Few years back I though that probably Meyer used the longsword as training tool for the rapier and so that it was not as performant as Ringeck. Ie that the Kron did nor really work. I have since think on it a bit more and I believe that it is not a case of working or not working but more a case of applying the technique that fit a tactical system that technique used in isolation. I.e Meyer long sword is probably a tool to learn rapier/body conditioning as well but it is a working and functional system for the long sword on its own (and not a cheap version of it).

Basically I am convinced that Meyers tactical rules are such that the kron will work, and I am sure that the Arma tactical rules are the same in that respect.
The only difference between arma and &amp;#8220;me&amp;#8221; is that arma has build their tactical rules/application condition/generic principles/ &amp;#8220;the_why_and_when_to_do_things_this_way&amp;#8221; from several manual and I take mine from only one.

Ringeck and Dobringer do not use it because it does not really fit their tactical application rule. So if you stick to those application rules/tactical principle your system your technique will work.
Form me it is akin to compare Fiore, Ringeck and Meyer to find which one is the best.

Another way to put it would be that if we were fighting against each other and we were in meyer application conditions, you would get me with the kron and the kronhaw, however if we were in ringeck application conditions I would get you if we were doing exactly the same move.


I hope that made more sense
One Ringeck to bring them all In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.


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