the value of free play

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Jay Vail
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the value of free play

Postby Jay Vail » Wed Nov 13, 2002 3:44 am

There has been a lot of discussion about the value of free play in training swordsmen, and ARMA, a pioneer in this area, has gotten a lot of criticism for endorsing the practice. Whether medieval warriors engaged in a form of free play, with wasters or sharps, is unproven. However, it is apparent that the Roman army of the classical period trained its troops using free play after the recruits had practiced at the pell. G.R. Watson writes in The Roman Army, pages 57-58:

“When the recruit had attained a proper proficiency with these make-believe weapons [wicker shield and waster] he would begin training with the normal arms. This formal training culminated in individual combat, each recruit being assigned another as adversary. This more advanced stage of training had a name, armatura, which itself was borrowed from the gladiatorial schools.

“Vegetius writes: ‘The recruit should be instructed in that system of arms drill which is called armatura and is carried on by drill-masters. It is still partly kept up [in the 5th century]. For it is clear that even today those trained in the armatura are superior to the rest in all encounters. From this it should be realized how much better a trained soldier is than an untrained one. Those who have any experience of the armatura at all outstrip the remainder of their comrades in the art of fighting.’ . . . For these advanced contests it appears likely that a special type of practice weapon was employed: a wooden sword of service weight tipped with a leather button. The object of the button, of course, was to prevent the infliction of too serious injuries while ensuring as life-like a contest as possible.”

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John_Clements
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Re: the value of free play

Postby John_Clements » Wed Nov 13, 2002 9:06 am

Yes, Armatura is the term we adopted for our series of drills and exercises. The evidence for free play & sparring as mock combat training throughout the Medieval & Renaissance eras is pretty clear and overwhelming (I document it in my new book).

We're not the first to advocate active sparring by any means, but we did make the first concertive effort to emphasize it as part of a whole curriculum rather than an end in itself as sport or tournament game.

I don't recalll us ever getting "a lot" of criticism for it though. But certainly a good deal of immitation.

JC
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Re: the value of free play

Postby Guest » Wed Nov 13, 2002 1:18 pm

I was going to say, I don't see why anyone would argue that some form of free-play isn't good for improving their swordsmanship. I have also never heard of any criticize groups who do include free-play in their training. The type of fencing weapon used might spark some debate, but that has been done to death and make for some very boring conversation in my opinion. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smirk.gif" alt="" />

The only thing I've heard is criticism of various WMA groups that start people out fencing too early. I've even heard that some people have students fence at their first lesson! <img src="/forum/images/icons/shocked.gif" alt="" />

As far as those who say that fencing or sparring in any form is unnecessary, well, I disagree strongly with that. But hey, people can do what ever they want.

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Shane Smith
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Re: the value of free play

Postby Shane Smith » Wed Nov 13, 2002 2:23 pm

I am convinced that those that dismiss the importance of free-play as a neccessary learning tool,do so because they themselves either lack the technical skill required to excel,or the mental gear to get the job done when faced with a mentally and technically competent Swordsman.They just don't possess the "intangibles" and know in their heart-of-hearts, that in order maintain their current status among the unknowing, they must hide behind their "secrets" and must refrain from openly participating in the one activity that exposes more charlatans than any other. <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />
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Jeffrey Hull
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Re: the value of free play

Postby Jeffrey Hull » Wed Nov 13, 2002 2:58 pm

No one ever argues against sparring in boxing, and having practice-matches (aka sparring) in wrestling, nor for that matter, drills and routines in either boxing or wrestling. So why would anyone argue against any and all of same for training at the long-sword? JH
JLH

*Wehrlos ist ehrlos*

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John_Clements
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Re: the value of free play

Postby John_Clements » Wed Nov 13, 2002 3:48 pm

There are a few individuals who have groups whom I have met over the years who actually did not "spar", they only did exercises and drills and then choreographed routines. I have also argued with a few teachers who did indeed dispute the value of serious contact sparring in favor of very light, non-contact out of range sparring at slower speed. This is pretty common in Asian martial art styles too.

As to sparring too soon or too early, doesn't Marozzo say that students should begin playing with one another after only 5 days instruction in drills and exercises? Those were violent times after all.

JC
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TimSheetz
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Re: the value of free play

Postby TimSheetz » Wed Nov 13, 2002 7:54 pm

I think that in general, students have to be given the chance to take their exercises 'out of the lab' and into ' the field' by sparring.. and they need to start doing it fairly early.

Sure, you have to adjust based on the individual, but I think it helps a lot. Just the insights on how movement happens at full speed they gain will feed back into the drills they do.

Just my 2 cents.
Tim Sheetz
ARMA SFS

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GaryGrzybek
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Re: the value of free play

Postby GaryGrzybek » Thu Nov 14, 2002 6:27 am

I agree completely Tim. Our 5 hour training session in the wrestling hall at West Point proved it. I quickly understood how different it is to deal with combatants who are attacking you at full speed with intent. I also learned how absolutely importaint footwork is if you don't want to get hit.

I feel that once a student becomes somewhat comfortable in handling the weapon he should begin some form of free sparring.
Gary

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Mike Cartier
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Re: the value of free play

Postby Mike Cartier » Thu Nov 14, 2002 9:41 am

I never say no to anything thats free <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />
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George Turner
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Re: the value of free play

Postby George Turner » Thu Nov 14, 2002 3:07 pm

I agree! Free play doesn't cost anything, and is critical to understanding swordplay. It teaches you the relative speeds and distances and how they relate. Without it, modern students would be like aspiring tennis players who've never played, nor even watched a real match. They can drill all they want, and achieve perfect form for a serve or volley, but won't have any clue as to how to play tennis. They'll have a mental image that "I hit the ball over their, and they hit it back. Then I see where they hit it, and run over to it and hit back again." Of course, they might think the goal is to hit it back and forth all day. That concept might work for children's badminton, but not tennis.

Modern students have generally only seen the movie forms, and need to spar a bit to get a basic feel for what goes on. They need to see just how "uncooperative" an opponent can be, and how some "techniques" just don't work.

It comes down to learning the difference between trying to kill someone with a sword, versus trying to execute moves to look like a hollywood swordsman. Without this testing of skills and techniques in free play, instead of mastering a martial art, you're just advancing in a pecking order based on skill at criticizing other peoples "form", while still having no idea how a fight works. I suppose that this eventually leads to someone using a rapier to perform the "spinning whirlygig of death!" as seen in the Three Musketeers.

Anyway, if you haven't done some free-play with someone who's not been taught to "respond correctly to make it look good", it's a real eye-opener, and why not open the student's eyes early so they don't spend a year thinking they're taking a medieval dance class.

Best Regards, and spar whenever the opportunity arises.
George Turner
ARMA in KY

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Jeffrey Hull
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Re: the value of free play

Postby Jeffrey Hull » Thu Nov 14, 2002 7:15 pm

Yes, exactly, totally agree. When my older brother, a splendid wrestler, coaches his high-school team, he obviously does so by having them wrestle matches against each other - aka sparring at speed, with will, and so forth. The same is done in jujitsu with what is called, among other things, free-play. How else should anyone train another in how to fight well, if such never includes sparring? Good luck! JH.
JLH



*Wehrlos ist ehrlos*

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Re: the value of free play

Postby Guest » Fri Nov 15, 2002 2:47 pm

I also agree. One can not study a Martial Art, eastern or western, and not spar or free play. I made my guys spar the first of our first group session. They said it help them understand what the wards are used for and how to apply the three wonders. They were awe strucked when I picked up a buckler and then used a shield. They understand now what "medieval combat" means. <img src="/forum/images/icons/shocked.gif" alt="" />

I believe JC said it best in Medieval Swordsman ship: You can learn to drive a car by just reading the owner's manual.

Todd

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Re: the value of free play

Postby Guest » Fri Nov 15, 2002 2:48 pm

excuse me "can't learn to drive a car"


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