The dangers of groundfighting in WMA

[Shane Smith]

After watching some very good standing grappling maneuvers and techniques at speed with intent while some of my fellow ARMA-types fenced at the longsword this past weekend, I was struck by just how bad an idea trying to mutually ground an opponent while unarmoured is in many cases for those engaged in recreating RMA. There were many good standing leverages and grips employed while engaged at crossed-swords, but on a couple of occasions,the fencers went to the ground together via various throws and leverages.This seems somewhat unprofitable to me as we by definition are recreating the historical martial techniques of dealing life and death against another non-cooperative fencer who is armed as a matter of course with at least a sword,yet in the RMA,it seems likely that a dagger was very likely to be hidden about someones person in the streets and on the battlefields of old Europe. To roll around on the ground at pressed flesh range with an armed man seems to be less than ideal(Even in modern day in my opinion...I carry a small folding knife,don't you and everyone else you know?). The dagger or other weapon will find it's way home one way or another(at least it does around here) and if both men are armed, both are usually mutually run through or struck. The fight becomes one that is perhaps not so much one of superior skill, so much as it may be determined by one man's bleeding more slowly than his opposition. This is not a good thing. I think that this may be why the manuals show standing grappling very commonly but comparatively less ground fighting until we get to the armoured work in which everyone SHOULD have a dagger for such a probability and even then,it is better to ground you opponent and then put your point through him from your own feet <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" /> .

Since the openings are much less large in armour,this makes the ground fight more rational than such a fight unarmoured in which every bit of soft flesh can be easily skewered by even the least skilled. Standing dagger and sword bouts often DO seem to result in only one man being struck through superior skill (or dumb luck). As in fencing,with a dagger or knife,distance is your friend as long as you are similarly armed. If you are the guy with the knife and your opponent has a longsword,you had better jump him now and not let him pull away until he is stuck full of holes...Thoughts?

[JeffGentry]

Hey Shane
I think the reason we see so much of people mutualy going to the ground is it is harder and take's more time to get an opponent on the ground with out your self ending up there too.

I do agree it is not a good thing to roll around on the ground with a person who may be armed, i know if i try to throw someone to the ground and i go with them i try to regain my feet as soon as i can. i don't like rolling around on the ground if i know i can get to my feet and use a dagger on a guy who is on the ground.

Jeff

[Brian Hunt]

In my opinion,

rolling around on the ground in a fight is a dangerous place to be for both of you. It is fine for a competion where you know his buddies won't be able to jump in and kick you to death. During a competion, such as the no hold barred type matches, the better ground fighter frequently wins. However, in a bar fight, or on the street, and especially on the battle field if you are so tied up in single combat with someone it will be very difficult to protect yourself from other combatants. In the USA, the most common way for people to die in a fight is to be kicked in the head, usually by someone other than the person they were fighting. The second most common way for people to die in fights is to hit their heads on something while be thrown, tripped, pushed, ect: such as a curb, the edge of a bar or table, the sharp corner of a wall, a sink or a toilet. I prefer to remain on my feet during a fight, and not go to the ground, if at all possible. However, there will be times that you will have no choice, so it is a good idea to know how to fight on the ground, but I prefer to fight to give myself an opening to regain my feet by either quickly disabling my opponent, or throwing him off of me in a manner that allows me to do so.

just my 2 cents worth.

Brian Hunt.

GFS

[Jaron Bernstein]

Kind of a side note.

I just attended a very good Metallica concert this weekend. While seated in the nosebleed section, I go the chance to watch a mosh pit. One thing I noted about that mass of people crashing into each other was that when anyone fell down, they were helped up by those nearby. I got the impression that if they stayed down, they would have been trampled.

Now, go back in time and instead of people having fun at a concert, picture that same herd, with weapons TRYING to hurt you. And you end up on the ground then...Not pretty.

[leam hall]

Well, yes and no. I agree that if you're on the ground and your opponent has buddies (or if your friends never really liked you ...) staying on the ground is a bad idea. All of your targets are open and your defenses are minimal. In that case, getting up and away quickly is the best idea. To be honest, any sort of Ringen puts you at risk because your primary defensive tools, movement and limbs/weapons, are not fully available.

However, few modern MA schools teach going to the ground or winning there, even though many "real" fights seem to go there. Perhaps the best method to learn would include the ability to land well, take the opponent down, finish the fight, and get up/away fast?

[david welch]

Not to get too far off the topic...

A friend of mine is an under cover drug agent, and trains DEA, spec warriors, and others of that type operator. On another board we frequent, he puts up photo sequence progressions (PSPs) to share his knowledge in "real world applications of force". One of the other guys took them and made a pdf out of all the files. In my opinion, this is a real modern day fightbook, written by someone of the kind of caliber of the old "man at arms", and written for the modern fighting class.

A couple of things I noticed about it that may have some application with the old fight books:

1) There is no way to write something like this and not to assume the reader has at least some prior knowledge of the subject when you are writing at this level and;

2) Even in modern English with photos in sequence, it is very difficult to convey dynamic action in writing.

It is well worth reading for real world instruction from and for people that have been there and done that for real.

WARNING!!!
The following link is rated R for language and situations. It is not that bad too me, but it is what you would hear in a unit in the Army.

http://www.cba.ua.edu/~jbaker/psp4u/Southnarc's%20PSPs.PDF

Of course, he says to keep off the ground if you can...

[Ryan Ricks]

i keep getting a 404 on that link.

[Brian Hunt]

Hi Leam,

other reasons to stay off the ground in a modern context would be rocks, broken glass, concrete/asphalt, used medical needles, etc.

In a one on one type of contest in armour, as shown in Talhoffer, taking your opponent to the ground in order to kill him via an opening in his armour with your dagger is a good idea, but I don't think it would be a good place to be outside of this type of a specialized contest.

In today's world, I prefer to use a grappling style that allows me to remain on my feet and use the ground, walls, trees, etc. as a really large club. Where there are so many karate style McDojo's around, there are not as many people trained in how to fight this type of fight. You will have to watch out for someone trained in Akido, Judo, Jujitsu, or wresling.

just some more thoughts on this.

Brian Hunt
GFS

[JeanryChandler]

I just attended a very good Metallica concert this weekend. While seated in the nosebleed section, I go the chance to watch a mosh pit. One thing I noted about that mass of people crashing into each other was that when anyone fell down, they were helped up by those nearby. I got the impression that if they stayed down, they would have been trampled.

Thats just good punk rock Pit etiquette, which is a bit surprising for a heavy metal concert (HM fan usually never understood the concept and are notoriously eager to pummel each other for nothing at shows) but Metalica is an old school band so maybe something rubbed off there.

For what it's worth, I agree 100% about the dangers of gronud fighting in any kind of a street fight or bar fight. As a big guy, it's one thing I have to realy watch out for. I would even add that learning to roll out or spring back up to your feet would be a very vaulauble general martial arts skill to learn.

Also, based on everything I have read on medieval and renaissance warfare, the dagger in one form or another was actually THE most ubiquitous weapon on all battlefields for knights as well as common soldiers, at all periods from the iron age through the late 1600's...

DB

[david welch]

i keep getting a 404 on that link.

Really? I click straight through to the pdf. Do you have adobe installed?

[Ryan Ricks]

it works this morning. maybe it was down temporarily? dunno

[Jaron Bernstein]

Of course the down side this, is IMO you must have at least SOME minimal competence at groundfighting. Even if it is the least desirable of worlds (unless you are a BJJ stylist), if you end up there, it is good to have at least some clue.

[Mike Cartier]

well if you have no intention of going to the ground I suggest you do not try any standing grappling either, because thats clinch range and thats where most fights end up on the ground. Once an opponent is in clinch range unless you have superior strength or weight and/or superior skill at grappling the chances that both of you will hit the ground skyrocket.

Noone wants to be on the ground especially underneath, but if you grapple at all the chances are very high that you may end up underneath , in which case groundfighting is your only way out.

As for the multiple opponent reason for not groundfighting that applies equally to other areas of the fight. If i am trying to throw you his buddies may punch me in the back of the head, if i am boxing and focused on one person his buddy may hit me in the back of the head.

Ground fighting is about learning to be on top, which is just where you want to be in a clsoe combat situation involving weapons. Pankration is an art with alot of grappling and groundfighting in it as well as striking. it was the staple unarmed complement to the hoplites so i imagine it would not have been so useless in battle. i expect they didn't do much stalling either from underneath or on top when they used it though. It is true that once 2 people without much ground fighting skill hit the ground its becomes a crap shoot, however hit the ground with a good wrestler, catch player or BJJ submission grappler and you will be underneath quite quickly.



Also see this thread i made a while back on

Roman battlefield grappling

[Matt Shields]

other reasons to stay off the ground in a modern context would be rocks, broken glass, concrete/asphalt, used medical needles, etc.

But in these situations, the danger is equal for your opponent. And if you are more skilled than your opponent in ground fighting then you may use these things to your advantage while on top. And if your on top, your opponent reaching out for any items nearby would open him up for nice keylock or hammerlock.

And though in a Medieval battle field scenario, fighting on the ground would leave you open to attack from enemies (just as it would with your opponent) aren't you just as likely to have a spare knife or dagger as anyone else on the field?

To me, this seems like saying: "Fighting on a rainy day is dangerous because you may slip in the mud." But if your opponent is also fighting in the mud, isn't it just more of an issue of who is going downhill or uphill (like top or bottom of a mount) and who has more training and experience in this situation?

[Rob Lovett]

Hi Mike,

While I agree with you to a point, a knowledge of gound fighting is important I think that you can train to give yourself an advantage in the stand up.
I have spent time on doors and so have many of my friends and they all agree that the last place they want to be is on the ground. This does not mean that the ground is ignored in terms of practise nor that they "never" end up there, but equally it does not mean that because they have ended up in the grapple they do not expect to go to ground.
Also, I dispute what you say about the good grappler will always be on top. I would rather say that the good grappler on the ground will tend to be where he wants to be while the other is not and in a far worse position. Look at some of the sentry take downs for instance.
Lastly, while it is true in multiple assailant scenarios that you can be attacked from behind standing up as you can be while on the ground, it is also true to say that it is easier to move about while you are on two legs to zone your assailants and to minimise the chances of them coming at you from behind, something that is more difficult to do on the ground. Also, the danger is somewhat different as if you are on the ground the strikes will be harder with more body weight coming down on you and you will be facing more kicks, which while you may be able to deal with one person standing up when you start dealing with 4 or 5 intent on using your head as a football, things become a little more difficult. But then this is where you can use the body of the person who helped you to the ground for a bit of shielding <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

Enough waffle, nice thread BTW <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />
Regards
Rob