New Article Online - Damaged Edges

[Ryan Ricks]

the zorn vs. zorn is all in the timing. as a beginner here, that's the first thing i noticed.

if i launch my counter zorn too early, we have edge on edge.

if i launch my counter zorn too late, then obviously i get hit.

but if i launch it just right, aka indes, then i can have my edge hit his flat, driving his blade straight into the ground.

ryan

[GaryGrzybek]

Stewart, I agree with you here that a proper Zornhau against another Zornhau should not allow the edges to meet dead on but one will overlap the other to some extent contacting more of the flat. After all, as the counter is determined, getting off line should naturally avoid such catastrophy.

I really think we're stretching this thread to the breaking point although a good healthy debate is good now and then. We should all agree that by employing proper technique, any unessasary edge trauma might be avoided. Circumstances beyond our control may yield some hard edge contact but it's certainly not prefered. In some instances, edge on edge is fine provided it's done on the foible while closing in to avoid edge trauma.

So there, I flogged the dead horse and that's all I have to say about that <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Mike Cartier]

And a solid flogging it was Gary.

[Scott Anderson]

I've noticed that a lot of people when they are first learning the zornhau vs zornhau counter instinctivly pull their blades to their left shoulder, focusing on their opponents blade rather than on hitting their opponent. This tends to have a result of them turning their edge into the incoming sword edge. Could this be what is being talked about? An impropperly performed zornhau counter?

SPA

[Rabbe J.O. Laine]

Um. Please correct me if I'm mistaken (as I think I said earlier, I'm not too familiar with German longsword), but if your opponent cuts Zornhau to your ear, the cut will travel on an almost perfectly horisontal line (assuming you are of similar height), right? If you counter with a Zornhau of your own, isn't edge contact at some angle or another then quite inevitable?

Thanks,
Rabbe

[Brian Hunt]

Hi Rabbe,

I think you may be confusing a zornhau (a downwards, descending cut from right to left with the true edge), with a zwerchau (a horizontal cut aimed at either side of the head with either the short edge - generally done at your opponents left ear - or the long edge - much like a helicopter blade action).

The zwerchau is a master strike used against a zornhau. A zornhau is also a master strike frequently used against a zornhau. When you counter a zornhau with a zornhau, it is a timing thing. Your zornhau will be above his zornhau so your true edge will mostly contact his flat, there may be a degree of edge contact in this action, but it is not a 90 type of edge contact that gouges blades.

I hope this helps

Brian Hunt
GFS

[Scott Anderson]

If you are thinking of a zwerchhau (which would follow the line you describe) you can even counter that with another zwerchhau. But you have to throw it from the same side and under his zwerchhau. The blades meet flat on flat with his blade catching on your cross while your blade hits him. If you throw it from the opposite side you will meet edge on edge, but you are both likely to hit each other which is much worse.

SPA

[Rabbe J.O. Laine]

Thanks for the correction.

However, at least Meyer says that a Zornhau can also be aimed towards the side of the head (uhh... would that make it a Zwerchhau from Zornhut, then?). In this case, the flat should, at least according to my reasoning, face upwards so avoiding edge-to-edge seems rather difficult.

... there may be a degree of edge contact in this action, but it is not a 90 type of edge contact that gouges blades.

Which was exactly my point; not all edge-to-edge contact is evil and eats edges. *g*

Rabbe

[Roger Soucy]

However, at least Meyer says that a Zornhau can also be aimed towards the side of the head (uhh... would that make it a Zwerchhau from Zornhut, then?). In this case, the flat should, at least according to my reasoning, face upwards so avoiding edge-to-edge seems rather difficult.

Actually no. A zornhau to the head/ear would be a much higher arc over your shoulder descending through your opponents ear, jaw, neck, chest, etc... A zwerchau from vom tag or zornhut would travel around your shoulder and slice through the ear, eyes, and other ear with luck! The two strikes make completely different arcs. And it is the path of the strike that makes a zornhau, not really the target.

Only by targeting your opponents blade as opposed to your opponent will yield a true edge-on-edge strike with zornhau-zornhau.

[Ryan Ricks]

you can target any part of the body with a zorn, but what makes it a zorn is the 45 degree angle of attack.

ryan

[Shawn Cathcart]

Posted by Rabbe
In reply to:
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... there may be a degree of edge contact in this action, but it is not a 90 type of edge contact that gouges blades.
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Which was exactly my point; not all edge-to-edge contact is evil and eats edges. *g*

But all 90 degree direct edge to edge contact is. Which is, I believe, the point people have been making from the very beginning. People tend to forget that there are varying degree's and angle of edge contacts.

Say you have a diamond cross section for your blade, you attempt some form of hanging guard, but have it turned just a bit too far, most of the edge impacts your flat, but it still contacts your edge as well, say at like a 30 degree angle. This still causes some minor damage to your edge, but it could be quite easily repaired. Where as the deep gouges from 90 degree edge impacts seem almost impossible to repair.

However, technically both could be classified as an edge to edge contact. Which is why people specify 90 degree edge contacts as bad, in relation to blades designed for cutting, and also with the knowledge that ricasso and forte stifling actions are a different type of scenario.

The discussion here is focusing on 90 degree edge on edge contact, used in conjunction with a static block, on the cutting section of the blade. The general consensus is that this is bad, that it shortens the life of the blade, is not an ideal position for counters, and likely robs the blade of cutting effectiveness. Would you agree or disagree?

[Rabbe J.O. Laine]

Thanks for correcting me on the Zornhau.

Shawn,

90 degree edge-on-edge *was* advocated by some masters. I gave several examples in earlier posts.

This still causes some minor damage to your edge, but it could be quite easily repaired. Where as the deep gouges from 90 degree edge impacts seem almost impossible to repair.

That would kinda depend, in my opinion, on how sharpened your forte is. In general, though, we seem to pretty much be in agreement.

The discussion here is focusing on 90 degree edge on edge contact, used in conjunction with a static block, on the cutting section of the blade.

I certainly would agree, but... someone parries with the cutting part? At least I classify edge contact at any angle, at any part of the blade, as edge-on-edge contact, since the edges, well, contact.

The general consensus is that this is bad, that it shortens the life of the blade, is not an ideal position for counters, and likely robs the blade of cutting effectiveness. Would you agree or disagree?

Certainly.

Rabbe

[Casper Bradak]

The majority of swords in medieval/renaissance europe were sharpened the entire length of the blade. According to the late Mr. Oakeshott, squared off ricassos first appeared in the 15th century and were very rare for the duration.
Given thicker fortes on originals would make them more durable even when sharpened though, as opposed to modern replicas with an even thickness throughout, and therefore resist breakage, but probably won't make much difference in gouging or chipping if recieving or clashing, rather than stifling.

[John_Clements]

Doesn't Vadi or some other master point out that nly the first quarter of blade near the point is what is "sharpened", implying the rest is simply well honed but not "razor" keen?

gotta run,
JC

[Brian Hunt]

In Chapter 2

Vadi says "If using the sword in arms, it must be sharp four fingers from the tip, the grip and the pointed hilt as said above, and not the writing."

So he is talking about a 2-handed sword for use in armoured comabt. He doesn't specify how it should be sharpened for unarmoured.

hope that helps.

Brian Hunt.
GFS.