The dangers of groundfighting in WMA

[Casper Bradak]

I've only ever seen one eye gouge that didn't end the fight, and it did get the gougee to release his headlock. The others ended the fights right then and there, with the gougees clutching their faces whining about being blind.
Nothing is ever a sure bet in a fight, the human body and what can be done to it are quite unpredictable, but some things certainly are better bets than others, and some things more sensible. I've never seen a successful choke in a real fight, though I've seen many attempted. And those were one on ones. A sure fight stopper depends more on the one stopped than the one who delivered it, and could be just about anything from a break, KO, to a slap in the face.

[TimSheetz]

Attention to details like where your eyes are in relation to the opponent is relly important... that's why an "uncooperative" opponent during training is essential in validating the techniques on which we work.

In the very little combative training I've done, we would go through the "illegal" actions -but not include the contact to exercise the thought process - then move to a safer method t full speed.

The best is learning how to put a lock blade or similar tool into action when being grappled with. I have a super cheap, heavily ground down lock blade for that very purpose. The look on my training partners face when we all heard the click of the blade opening was priceless! Always assume your opponent is armed and you won't be caught off guard.

Tim

[Jaron Bernstein]

Those street fights that I have seen have been over very fast (the actual fight part, the noise and BS takes longer). I didn't see much precision grappling, but that may very well be more the nature of the combatants (bozo with 35 beers and no training beyond the ability to bench press things) than the efficacy of techniques (such as a choke).

However once (only once), I saw someone (who was a sober cop who did have lots of training) actually get off one of those aikido wrist lock throws on the afforementioned bozo. It was just beautiful to behold. The guy did a full rotation in the air. And then he hit the stairs. <img src="/forum/images/icons/tongue.gif" alt="" />

IMO, as said above, that whole multiple opponent thing kind of makes ground fighting dangerous. That said, IMO you NEED groundfighting skills in case you end up there. What can you do when the guy starts to lock up your arm, tell him, "I didn't learn groundfighting so it isn't fair for you to do that?"

But in the historical WMA sense, I am unaware of any of the manuals that deal with groundwork.

[JeanryChandler]

This is slightly OT, but one thing I had noticed in the old days, if you were grappled by a superior grappler like a college wrestler or somethng, a very good way to break wrestling locks in those areas where I tended to see fights take place (i.e. on the street) was for folks to use an inanimate obstacle like a wall, a balcony pole, (if you are vertical) or the sidewalk to quickly bash somebodys head, or their hand if they have a weapon. I have seen this used with great success on many occasions. In an urban environment, it seems to be the most superior tactic, it's remarkably easy to shove somebodies head a few inches into a wall or a pole, and it has a dramatic effect, often ending the fight. A littler guy can even do it to a big guy, I've seen young punk rockers do tihs to bikers and rednecks twice their size.

I was just wondering if there is anything like that portrayed in the fechtbuchs... i've seen drawings of using such unorthodox items as beer mugs and benches and stools, but never say, the wall or the floor.

J

[Ryan Ricks]

I've seen young punk rockers do this to bikers and rednecks twice their size

*takes notes* i'm a young punk rocker.

ryan

[Aaron Pynenberg]

Jeanry, I'm not sure about historical sources but this is a very effective police tech. which is taught in the academy. Its called a vertical stun, and I use all the time with great results. It works best when you quickly and forcefully shove the upper chest back into a soild object. It has the effect of a good punch but without the damage or social stigma. It usually knocks the wind out of the person and gives them a good stinger, but it has to be done 100% or it just makes them more angry!- Aaron

[Mike Cartier]

*has punk rock flashbacks from his youth*

[Casper Bradak]

"I was just wondering if there is anything like that portrayed in the fechtbuchs... i've seen drawings of using such unorthodox items as beer mugs and benches and stools, but never say, the wall or the floor."

There's often a weapon for better effect <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" /> Anyway, the images in the manuals are often basic and unelaborated, showing the basic method, but needless to say many of the grappling techniques could be done on or around such things to heighten their effect or suit the situation.
Most throws use the floor to good effect, and there are several pins using the floor.

"But in the historical WMA sense, I am unaware of any of the manuals that deal with groundwork."

There are many. Ringeck and Talhoffer are good places to start for integrating weaponry in some, and those aren't even the exclusively unarmed manuals.

[Jaron Bernstein]

"There are many. Ringeck and Talhoffer are good places to start for integrating weaponry in some, and those aren't even the exclusively unarmed manuals."

By groundfighting, I am talking about when BOTH parties are on the ground wrestling. Those manuals cover that, or is it just more how to get the other guy down while you stay up? I have read Ringeck and must have missed (or misunderstood) that part.

<img src="/forum/images/icons/blush.gif" alt="" />
Jaron

[Casper Bradak]

Talhoffer has several throughout, and Ringecks are particularly in his "ston" techniques.
Granted, they're not about rolling around on the ground all day going for a submission, but mostly either going to the ground with your opponent, or getting out of it if they've put you there.

[Jaron Bernstein]

Thanks, my bad. Back the manuals I go....

Jaron <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Mike Cartier]

i found a historical reference to grappling on the battlefield which includes the ground.

Lucian wrote in Procopius I from 6th century Byzantium, of a latin wrestler named Andreas where he describes several of his bouts with Persions in battle. Andreas was a wrestling teacher and owner of a wrestling school in a large Byzantine city.

Lucian says the use of wrestling in war is :
"when grappling the enemy to trip him up and throw him, and when falling down oneself to get up most easily"

I think this shows that there was some contngency in grappling for ending up on the ground before your opponent . One of the most important skills of ground fighting is dealing with an inferior position. That inferior position might be you getting tossed to the ground first or both of you faling to the ground and you in the underneath/inferior position.
.

[Aaron Pynenberg]

Mike, You know this tradition still has not died, some of the first skills taught, in Military training today, (in the world's most advanced Army), is still basic hip throws and basic groundfighting.

The fact is, you end up on the bottom, and you probably will be killed. I remeber this lesson well, as my Drill instructor just happened to pick me as a throwing dummy---OUCH that really hurt! Aaron

[Casper Bradak]

Yeah, I fully believe that the unarmed aspects of ancient european martial arts were never lost and never died. Schools died, names changed, philosophies changed, direct "schools" or "families" of lineage died, but it's a tree, not a straight line. The techniques were never lost, they were just tossed about, disseminated, adapted, or kept as is. Some remained for defense, some were adapted for sport, and new ones added. It's fully evident in the art, manuals, writings and logic.

[Jaron Bernstein]

I am not so sure being on the bottom is neccissarily an inferior position. Granted, I am not so good at it, but I know some really sharp BJJ stylists who work better from the guard than they do from their feet. I recall one match where we started out standing and I threw the guy fairly handily. He then dragged me down with him, got me in the guard and locked out my arm in about 20 seconds. If that was an inferior position, it sure didn't feel like one.



As for the groundfighting (as in 2 people on the ground rasslin') aspect in WMA, thanks, I just wasn't aware it was really there (beyond the throws and then stomping on them). I stand corrected.