A discussion thought

[JeffGentry]

Hello all

Have been considering this statement and how to apply it in a fight and would like to see what other's thought's are on this and what the tactical consideration's come to other's mind's in/before/during a fight.

Lichtenauer: "Before displacing gaurd yourself. Place yourself for advantage"

Any thought's or tactical consideration's to discuss.

Jeff

[GaryGrzybek]

Just a shot in the dark here but I'll try. I think what the Master is trying to tell us is, in stead of relying mainly on defensive measures to counter an attack we should place ourselves in a position which provides the best advantage. In other words, if you know how he might attack from a particular guard you need to assume the best place to be which will allow you to fight offensively and with initiative. I imagine this easily ties in with the Masters comments concerning fighting in the vor and nach.

[JeffGentry]

hey Gary

I agree with you on that, i wonder too if he was also talking about the meisterhau to an extent and how they are used to displace and place yourself for advantage.

what did they consider advantage as compared to what we consider advantage?


Jeff

[philippewillaume]

hello
which manual is that from (to my great shame I do not recognise it...)

My understanding of that in the light of other lichty manuscript is the diffrence between the good and tha bad versetzen.
to make it simple the good are the one that enble you get your opponent or at least to gain the vor.
The bad are the one that does not achive that. ie we stay in the nach

phlippe

[JeffGentry]

Hey Philippe

which manual is that from (to my great shame I do not recognise it...)

actualy i read that in the Meyer text and he is quoting Lichtenauer, I am not sure where Meyer got it.

I just thought it an interesting quote, and worth some thought and discussion, maybe i should have just made the statement and not done it as quote.

Jeff

[Bill Welch]

The quote is from Goliath, c.1500, from section about displacments.

"Text when one shall not displace

Before displacing guard yourself, place yourself well for effort

That is you should not displace as the common fencer does. When they displace then they hold their point high or to one side, so understand that they do not know how to use the point in the displacement to seek onward and are often hit. Thus when you would displace, then displace with your strike or with your stab and just then search for the next opening with the point, thus you will not be mastered and struck to your damage." <img src="/forum/images/icons/cool.gif" alt="" />

Bill

[GaryGrzybek]

Thanks Bill,

For some reason I've never seen this. It makes perfect sense now <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

[Casper Bradak]

Yes, defend and threaten at the same time, so it's not wasted time and effort.

[JeffGentry]

hey Bill

The quote is from Goliath, c.1500, from section about displacments.

Well Meyer was written in 1570, could it be that the Goliath is using a similar quote as Meyer from Lichtenauer.

who or were it is from was not the point i was wanting to get people to think about displacement's in combat and how they approach the fight, we all have a thought process in a fight and a way we think and work in a battle.

do you think about if i use this gaurd i can displace and cut immediately or do you just attack as your defense?

[philippewillaume]

I think it is just attack as you defense.
(well attack in a defensive way that is)
a little like the going back with a forward motion dear to all akidoka <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

[Bill Welch]

Well I think that the whole idea is to attack, as a defense, unless you have no other choice but die or defend, then you should defend but try to leave yourself in an offensive position when you do defend. So that you can immidiatly attack to regain the before. <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

bill

you gotta love the violence inherent in the system.

[Jeff Hansen]

After reading the goliath quote, I would say that the essence of the instruction is to keep your point on line with your opponent, in readiness for the thrust. It is reinforcing the instruction to cut to the four hangers, and in the case of versetzen, retake the vor with the thrust. It's a very Liechtenauer approach to the fight IMHO.

[philippewillaume]

Hello jeff
May be it is bit semantic borderline pedantic, but I think you trust because you are in the VOR and not to gain it. You have gained the Vor with your good verzetzen (ie on that keep the point in line) and fullen tells you which of the 3 wounders to use. But you being in the Vor could be expressed by an schnit or a strike.
I would say that the kronhaw follows the same idea (within meyer system).

I think the goliath statement is the same as the one in Ringeck( come on, you were due to one ringeck quote by now)

Vnd hyt dich vor allen versetzen, die die schlecht vechter tryben. Vnd merck: wen er hawt, so haw och, vnd wen er sticht, so stych och. Vnd wie dü hawen vnd stechen solt, das findest dü in den fünff hewen vnd jn den absetzten geschryben

And guard yourself from all versetzen that the poor fencer does. And mark when he strike then strike as well, when he thrust then thrust as well and how you are to strike and thrust you will find described in the five strike and in the Abzetsen.

Ringeck is just a bit more specific( or restrictive) about what to use to get there.

[JeffGentry]

Hey philippe

And guard yourself from all versetzen that the poor fencer does. And mark when he strike then strike as well, when he thrust then thrust as well and how you are to strike and thrust you will find described in the five strike and in the Abzetsen.

So you think these two go hand and hand, i tend to agree, do we determine this before or do we let our opponent dictate this in the fightor do we need to attack and take control of the fight to do this.

Sun Zsu said something along the line's of when you are strong appear weak, does this have any bearing on this?

Jeff

[philippewillaume]

Hello jeff
Theorically, I would say it does not matter too much. It is detemined for us.
Either we are already in the Vor and we do one of the 5 strike (or a derived trust or scnitt
Or we are in the nach and we do one of the five strikes or the 2 verzetzen to win the vor back.

Practically I tend to believe that you are in control because you can stick to your system more that your opponent can to his. (Usually sticking to your system means that he can not stick to his &amp;#8230;). So it is kind of chicken-egg thing. Your ability to stick to your style means you are in control and being in control mean that you can deploy your style.

I am not sure I am making to much sense but&amp;#8230;

Phlip phlop