Ringeck's First Leg-break

[David Craig]

We were trying out some of Ringeck's wrestling moves and were unclear about part of this one, that reads (from the ARMA website trans.):

"This is the usual wrestle at the arms, which is called Leg-break drive it with force. And if you seize his right arm, then step with the right leg to the rear and set the left foot in front of his leg. Then punch him in front of you over the hip."

This is basically a normal hip throw but the problem we are having is with the section in bold. How are you supposed to set your left foot in front of his leg? When trying this all we accomplished was to ruin the throw by throwing yourself off-balance instead. Does anyone have any insight on how to do this move properly?

David Craig

[JeffGentry]

Hey David

This is the usual wrestle at the arms, which is called Leg-break drive it by force. And if you seize his right arm, then step with the right leg to the rear and set the left foot in front of his leg. Then punch him in front of you over the hip.

Actualy this is a forward hip throw not the usual side hip throw, it seem's easy enough to do it, to do it quickly and proficiently it would take practice.

I think the key here is to grab his right arm with your right hand, this will facilatate stepping back with the right and stepping in front of him with the left and punching him from behind with your left hand over your left leg.

Jeff

[David Craig]

Actualy this is a forward hip throw not the usual side hip throw, it seem's easy enough to do it, to do it quickly and proficiently it would take practice.

I think the key here is to grab his right arm with your right hand, this will facilatate stepping back with the right and stepping in front of him with the left and punching him from behind with your left hand over your left leg.

Jeff,

Thanks, that makes a lot more sense. We were doing it as a hip throw over the right hip, so that part about the left foot had us totally puzzled. So if I understand you correctly, after I grab his arm and step behind him with my right leg I pivot to the left putting my left leg in front of his right leg, and then slam him in the back shoving him over my left hip/leg.

David

[JeffGentry]

David

after I grab his arm and step behind him with my right leg

no you don't exactly step behind him it is more a step off line, you take a step to your left and up slightly with your right foot kind of a shuffle step, to keep your balance, then step in front of his right leg/foot with your left leg and push/punch him forward over your left leg, that is what i see.

Jeff

[Roger Soucy]

So you're saying the "then step with the right leg to the rear" section of that means your rear, not your opponents rear?

That would make quite a bit more sense. Thanks.

[JeffGentry]

Roger
Basicly it is to your rear, it would be extremely difficult to step to the opponent's rear from the stated position.

Remember too that most thing's in wrestling rely on surprise, so in an actual fight you might have to do a little manuvering on your feet to get the position you need, if you step he is going to move so you may need to dance around a bit, he know's your up to something. lol

Jeff

[David Craig]

Ok, I think I've got it now. Thanks, Jeff.

Roger, we'll have to try that one again next time,

David

[Shawn Cathcart]

The step backwards is key. As mentioned you step backwards, whether directly backwards or on an angle is open to interpretation. Its a jostling for position and balance. To simply seize the arm and try to step across your opponent with your left leg would unbalance you and leave you open to easy counter throws and actions.

Instead, you seize the arm, stepping backwards, pulling the opponent with you, hopefully momentarily unbalancing him, giving you the opening to step across with your left foot nice and deep and execute the throw. For most throws of this nature your leg has to be crossed quite deep with his in order for it to work, say step in deep enough to cross at the knee's. If you only step far enough that your ankle is crossed with his, its quite easy for your opponent to simply step over your foot and avoid the leverage of the throw.

Pushing and pulling at the arms before executing a throw in my opinion is key to having any of these techniques work in a real setting.

[Roger Soucy]

Actually it's quite simple to step to your opponents rear during the opening of this movement. It does however become impossible to then position your left foot correctly.

But regardless, the movement makes perfect sense now.

[Jaron Bernstein]

Jeff,

OK, I know what you mean now. I know this throw and have done is several times. It is essentially a variant of the hip throw. My reservation about doing it on Sunday is the lack of mats and the OWU folks rather feeble falling skills. The landing for this one can be tricky if the thrower isn't careful and the lander doesn't turn over completely. The lander for this one has their arm trapped so they can't slap out.

[philippewillaume]

Von bain brüchen: der erst bain bruch.
About the leg breaks: The first leg break
Das ist das gemain ringen an armen, daß do haist: ain bain bruch; das trybmitt kröfften. Vnd begryffest du im den gerechte arm, (74 v ) so tritt in mittdem rechten fuß hinder sich vnd wer setz im mitt dem lincken fuß für sin bain;vnd stoß in für sich über die huff: damit volg.

This is the common (gemain= gemein) wrestling at the arms, which you heard. A leg break that you execute with craft (krofften=kraeften). And should you grab him in the appropriate/ extended/rightward arm. So you walk in with the right foot behind itself and displace/bend (versetz/ wer setz) him with the left foot for/at his leg and throw/chop/strike him away (fur sich=apart) over/across the (huff=hufte) hips with that follows (up)


This is a difficult one to make sens out of
I am not sure you actually step back.
There are few things that really puzzles me:
Tritt in is equivalent in meaning to step in (tretten is used for step walk)

The hinter sich. This is the reflexive form and grammatically, fuss seems the best choice.
Tritt hinter (or hinter dich) mitt dem rectcheten fuss. Is the way they usually uses to say step back.

Personally it is linked to the move in the second ringen.
Item, wann du zu dem ersten ringen nicht komen kanst, so Wechsel die vnderen handt oben vnd die obernvnden also, daß die ain hand sy an dem halß vnd die andern an dem bain:daß tryb von baiden sytten. Der vil ringen gert vnnd haisset der bainbruchan dem arm.

Item when you cannot be successful with the first wrestling. So change the lower hand to above and the upper one to below as well. So that one hand is at the throat and the other is at the leg. That works from both sides. Many wrestling come from that and are called the leg break at the arm

So I think the actual throw is along the line of tenchi nage (tenkan or irimi ?) with koshi nague.

What do you think.

[JeffGentry]

Philippe

i speak english what in the world is "tenchi nage (tenkan or irimi ?) with koshi nague"? Wrestling is heavily dependant on surprise generaly you will have to dance around until you get into a position to do a throw any throw.

i said step back because if your leading with the left foot you need to somewhat turn your shoulder's to your right and step in front of his right foot with your left and bring his right arm across your body to throw him over your left leg it is more of a shuffle forward not so much a literal step back/rearward, take alook at grecko roman, or collegiate wrestling, sometime's it will take trying two or three diffrent take down's before they are actualy successful even in the UFC stuff they usualy try 2-3 thing's before both are on the ground.


Jeff

[Shawn Cathcart]

The above sounds like a different action from the one described in the first post of this thread. The above would play out as follows (so far as I understand it).

The opponent is standing with his left leg forward, as are you. You reach across with your right hand, binding up his right arm. You then step behind his lead leg (left leg) with your right foot. Then using low and high leverage in opposite directions (push forward with your knee/hip, backwards with your arm, which now should be across his chest) tear him backwards over your leg/hip.

[JeffGentry]

Shawn

The opponent is standing with his left leg forward, as are you. You reach across with your right hand, binding up his right arm. You then step behind his lead leg (left leg) with your right foot. Then using low and high leverage in opposite directions (push forward with your knee/hip, backwards with your arm, which now should be across his chest) tear him backwards over your leg/hip.

1. You reach across with your right hand, binding up his right arm. You then step behind his lead leg: you just put yourself in a nice position for an elbow dislocation.

2.
the text state's: set the left foot in front of his leg, so you have to be either facing directly toward him or you need to on his side(somewhat).

3. Then punch him in front of you over the hip. you can't do this if your right leg is behind him.

Jeff

[Roger Soucy]

Just to add more fuel to the fire, I was playing with this one last night a bit and Jeff's interpritation does work well.

But, I also found I could end in the same position by stepping to my opponents rear, it's just a bit more tricky. Here's how this one plays out:

Opponent stands with right foot forward, or pass steps into such a position.

You grab opponents right arm with your right hand then step with your right foot to your opponents rear on his right side (moving under the grabbed arm).

Then Pass step back with the left leg (twisting), sweeping their right leg and using your leverage on their arm to throw them to the ground.

Again, this seems to work fairly well, it fullfils all the parts of the text, and is a completely different interpretation.