New Article Online - Damaged Edges

[Ryan Ricks]

now that's very interesting

ryan

[JeffGentry]

Hey Ryan

now that's very interesting

You mean all of Matt's post or a specific part?

Hey Matt you got a link to the spada text you refered don't think i have seen it, would like to though.


Jeff

[Ryan Ricks]

i meant the part about defending against cuts from the wrist/elbow versus full arm blows.

[Randall Pleasant]

Ryan

If you have not already done so, take a look at the saber article in the member's area. Very enlightening.

[Ryan Ricks]

you mean the one about the fencing saber? yeah i read that one. i always thought those fencing sabers made better rapiers than sabers.

i agree that saber fencing has no bearing on medieval fighting. later 18th and 19th century stuff i know nothing about, so i can't say

ryan

[Jeffrey Hull]

Excellent point. An Army nickname for one of the issue-years (cannot remember which) of sabre was "wrist-breaker".

Perhaps my point was meant to address more the willingness or unwillingness of the given belligerents regarding the sabre.

However, the degeneracy of weapons-quality certainly goes hand-in-hand with degeneracy of fencing-quality, as you presented.

Thanks, JH

[Chris Thompson]

Hi John,
I just had the opportunity to examine a number of pre-1800 Highland broadswords at some length. One of the oldest was a ribbonhilt from the late 16th century. This weapon weighed 2.3 pounds, but was so well balanced it felt as if it hardly weighed anything at all. The edge showed damage as if from striking the edge of another sword, as did most of the other Highland swords in the collection. Some had been ground down as if to remove such damage, and in some cases the blades were eventually remounted as dirks, seemingly once they were no longer fit for service as swords.
I also had the chance to work through the techniques for Highland sword and targe described by Page in his manual. The techniques work reasonably well from Page's stance, but they work much better from the more "medieval" guards shown in the Penicuik sketches of Highland warriors in the '45. This tends to confirm my hunch that Page had some access to genuine Highland sword and targe methods, but had modified them to more closely match British regimental swordplay. Page uses the targe to bind the opponent's sword and close the line, allowing for a final attack with the sword. In a few cases, he does parry with the sword on the fort, after which he transfers control to the targe so that the sword can strike.
There are two sources for Highlanders fighting Native Americans. One is Col. Stewart of Garth's book on the history of the Highland regiments, which is referenced extensively in "Highland Broadsword" by Wagner and Rector. The other is the Gaelic poetry found in Dr Michael Newton's "We're Indians Sure Enough," which is a cultural history of Gaelic immigration to the New World.
As for the St George and half-hanging guards- these are actually just parries from the hanging guard. In practice the St George rarely looks "textbook". The point tends to remain far enough forward that you are essentially just parrying on a hanging guard, but adjusting the angle as needed. Mathewson was rejecting the complexity of making four guards (hanging, inside half-hanger, outside half-hanger and St George) out of one guard, since these are all just variations on the hanging guard.
And there is no way the St George guard could stop a direct strike from a two-hander. I wouldn't even try it. I would instead use one of Page's slips while covering myself, and counter when my opponent missed. Or rather, I would attempt to. I have little doubt the two-hander would have the advantage over the single broadsword.
I fought several sword and targe bouts today against a longsword fencer, and did find that I could bind his weapon with my targe and strike simultaneously with my broadsword, provided I did so with speed and commitment. But when we fought single broadsword against longsword, I lost every time.
Sorry for the length of this,
Chris Thompson

[Casper Bradak]

I'd wager there would be more edge damage to scottish style basket hilts than most medieval style swords. Not only were they a later weapon with a different fighting style, but the basket makes the deflection of blows with the flat more difficult than with a cruciform hilt that leaves you more fluid gripping options. Not only that, but it could be argued that there's little evidence for root medieval personal fighting methods from scotland. (but that's probably a silly idea).
I'd say you're right that a broadsword cannot block a longsword well if you're passively imposing your edge between you and his weapon, but you shouldn't do that even against a matching weapon. Stifle or deflect it, and you'll find they're more evenly matched.
As for the saint george guard, if that's what was taught and listed in the manual you're referencing, I don't think theories about it rarely actually turning out that way in practice cut it. Perhaps the master would just say you're not trying hard enough or practicing enough.

[John_Clements]

Thanks for the info, Chris.

I too have found many authentic pre-18th century sabers and cutlasses to be fine weapons.

I think any sword & shield combo can be very effective against unarmored longswords.

Must go,

JC

[Chris Thompson]

> As for the saint george guard, if that's what was taught and listed in the manual you're referencing, I don't think theories about it rarely actually turning out that way in practice cut it. Perhaps the master would just say you're not trying hard enough or practicing enough.>

Allow me to clarify. A "perfect" St George's guard forms a horizontal downward-sloping line above and just in front of your head. When practicing the guards, it looks exactly like this, but when parrying the point tends to be further forward when you actually make contact. This was true even in the old manuals- every time someone is shown parrying with St George in Angelo's Highland broadsword posters, the point is further forward than when the guard is being "posed." In Mathewson's Highland broadsword manual, the hanging guard looks exactly the same as this "forward St George" when used to parry the head. My point was that Mathewson wasn't actually objecting to the St George's guard, just to the multiplicity of names for what is basically the same guard.
-Chris Thompson

[Casper Bradak]

I see, thanks, that's helpful.

[John_Clements]

Btw, I'm curious, what do you think then of the specific instructions in Renaisance texts to employ the hanging position so as to receive a cut on the flat when parrying with it?

JC

[Chris Thompson]

Hi John,
Could you be more specific as to which text, weapon, etc?
It seems to me that there are different styles of parrying based on the weapon, culture, school of fencing and circumstances.
-Chris Thompson