Combatting sword & shield w/ longsword

[Mason Kirbie]

Hey guys!

I was wondering how one fights against a sword and shield with a longsword. In my study group we have a 24 inch round shield and a 4 foot by 2 foot kite shield (the bane of me). I know that I need to use the length of my longsword to my advantage, and I know that I need to use his shield to my advantage, and of course, to not attack the shield. However, I have not found any techniques to effectively get around the shield to hit the user (other than to attack the legs which doesn't work against the kite, and only sometimes againts the round). I was wondering if anyone had any advice that I could add to my arsenal. Thank you very much!

[Ryan Ricks]

i would recommend the twitching zwerchhaus. alternate between high and low targets. maybe throw the first one high to the sword side, the second low to the shield side, possibly to the thigh or hip, then perhaps low again or high again on the other side.

the key is to rapid fire chain the zwerchs together as fast as possible, overwhelming your opponent. then when it's appropriate follow up with a zorn or something

another thing you might try is standing in right or left pflug. feint a stab to the face with a simple step forward, then once he brings the shield up high, lauch another thrust with a full passing step, perhaps combined with slipping the grip. you can aim the thrust once again at his face as he drops the shield down, or aim it under the shield

also, be aware the S&S guy is probably gonna try to rush in and overwhelm you. he's prolly gonna check your sword with his shield then try and stab you in the gut or something. so as he rushes in, you should try triangling or traversing to his sword side, then cutting at him.

the idea of the first two methods is to stay on the offense and fight in the vor, so he can't rush in and overwhelm you

ryan

[Casper Bradak]

Try several of Master Meyers longsword vs longsword techniques, particularly the ones that end in various false edge oberhau, reminiscent of the "winkerhau" of Lekuchner.
Another good thing to try vs a shield, if they fight defensively, or defend without threatening, is to strike a zornhau from zornhut. This also works well if they parry improperly and blind themselves.
This "master key" action vs a defensive or fearful opponent gives you many options, including falsing, zucken and winding.
And don't forget, with a longer weapon, as long as you are in your ideal range, it's not as dangerous to attack low quarters.

[Brian Hunt]

Another thing to do is attack to the side of his body where he isn't covered by his shield, for most people that would be his right side. If you step diagonolly to your left to attack, an inexperienced shield man may even bind up his own sword arm trying to block with his shield. Also remember that he has to expose his sword arm to your longer reach in order to attack you, exploit this to your fullest advantage, and as Casper said, attack his legs while out of his range, but still inside yours, this will force him to slip back from the attack or be hit, it is difficult to defend your legs with a round shield. Plus if he charges you and gets inside your range, that shield can guard you as well as him, meet his charge with you own charge while covering yourself against his sword with yours on your left side while moving past him on the right, from here you may even get a shot at his head or his kidneys as you go past, however the purpose of this is to get outside his range and back in your own (this move can be a little dangerous and is best left for last dich efforts). Plus never forget the effectivness of a thrust to the face, if he's dumb enough to cover his face with his shield then quickly strike under his shield while he is blind.

just some thoughts.

Brian Hunt.
GFS

[Casper Bradak]

To elaborate a little, if you bind your hilt against his shield due to a closing, as you traverse out to your right as Brian said, "schnappen" a strike with your false edge to his head as you do so, or use his shield to get him in an arm lock, which is ideal from that position.
Meyers weschelhau works well against shields and bucklers.
If he does decide he wants to block strikes to his lower openings, that's perfect for you, just change it to a high strike as he does so.

[Shawn Cathcart]

As others have mentioned, his sword arm is one of the major weakness'. Most people I see use large shields hold it with the face of the shield flat, facing towards you. To me this gets in the way of cuts, as well as robs the shield of its true reach defensively and makes it very difficult to strike with the edge of the shield. To my mind the shield should be held out on an angle, similiar to how many sword and buckler guards are used. This also does quite a good job of protecting the sword arm.

However, most people don't do this, so tag the arm as it comes out, or alternate high/low attacks. Its quite easy to open up the leg as a target while keeping safe distance. The shield can be as much of an encumberance as a benefit when in close, his real advantage is the shorter length of his blade. This is extremely hard to defend against when in close, so I'd advise a lot of caution about closing, or allowing yourself to be closed on.

Also striking the shield can be useful at times, just don't strike it dead on in the centre. Strong cuts to the top and bottom or the sides will torque the shield on his arm, potentially leaving openings, at the very least pushing his shield into his way as an annoyance.

[Shane Smith]

Go for the legs first with the spring but failing that, a feint that brings out his sword arm for your counter from range is a good idea.

Now,here's the more novel approach. If in substancial harness, go to the halfsword and rip his shield away with your pommel while binding/stifling his sword arm with your mid-blade as you strike him with your point. Those shields went away for a good reason you know <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Stuart McDermid]

Is your chap holding the shield flat to his body in a duel?

If so, thrust straight through it into his body, step back, and watch him die. Shields can deflect cuts and thrusts well when used properly. Face on, a thin piece of shield wood has no chance against a diamond section pointed longsword thrust with two hands.

It's all very well to play within our sparring systems, but we have to keep it real too. A medieval shield is NOT a riot shield.
Cheers,
Stu.

[JeffGentry]

Hey Shane

I am not half as experienced at half swording as Shane is, i was thinking the low gaurd on your left(i think it is a bastard cross) and use it to bind his sword arm against his shield with a pass to his right and stab him with the half sword you need to get close might be a little risky.

I am not very experieced with halfswording so don't put alot of stock in what i said lol.

Jeff

[Casper Bradak]

How thick are the shields you use? Maybe I'm a wimp but I can't penetrate 1/2" of wood with an estoc. I can't penetrate 1/4" lethally (if I try the telegraphing would be lethal). 18 guage steel shields I can poke holes in, but again, not lethally, and it's tough enough to get a 90 deg hit on an idle steel target, much less one with a person behind it.
In my experience as well, someone without training will move their shield even if you strike directly at it, rather than counter attacking, and someone with training will hold it in a proper angled guard. But I've never met anyone who literally holds it against their body anyway.
I'd no more try to poke a hole in a shield, even a novices, than I would try to pierce an opponents armour. I think it's even a worse idea vs a shield.
But you're right, that's no way to defend yourself either way.

[Shane Smith]

I must admit that I have not attempted to put my sharp and pointy through a 1/2" shield blank,but I suspect that my results would be near to those experienced by Casper.I have defeated an 18gauge helm from the halfsword and had about 3" of blade penetrate. I would add that even in a shieldwall formation,even though the shield is fairly face-on perhaps,I do not believe the shields were held hard against the body.Heck,the 3" thickness of bone and tendons across my forearm would make that impossible. As a rule,I hold a kite shield about 10" or so off of my torso(unless I'm really getting tired <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" /> ) .Center gripped a bit further generally.

Since I do pride myself on the doing of things,I will test your theory in a day or two on a shield blank and report back. I only regret that all I have available is a plywood blank made of two 1/4" sheets laid-up in glue.Hardly historically accurate but it may be fun anyways. Anyone want to sacrifice a good historically accurate shield to the cause and report back on your own results?

[Shane Smith]

My armour(I mentioned the longsword man being considerably harnessed above) combined with my swords impinging/interfering with his right protects me well enough from a cut or a weaker one hand thrust.I would take care to protect my head to prevent the possible "bell ringer" that a blow to the head could cause,even through the helm and it's liner.That one of the reasons for the pre-emptive bind of his right.If I can't move in on him outright,I can unsettle him by binding his right through either blade contact or closing his lines of attack by placement while ripping his shields rim with my pommel to get him turned or at the least out of position. It's easy to show,perhaps harder to explain.

[Jay Vail]

Here are a few things I did while briefly playing in SCA with longsword against sword-and-shield.

1. Stand on L ochs and threaten with the point at his face. When he advances, triangle step to the L and strike a zornhau at his R shoulder or head. This is his unprotected side and I never failed to obtain a hit at this. Also, as an aside, the SCA fighters were really confused by the ochs, since they do not used that guard in longsword in SCA combat, at least in the group I played with.

2. Fake a R zornhau to the head and when he raises the shield to catch it, strike at his L leg.

3. Thrust at the top of the shield. If you hit it, it will knock the shield out of position and create an opening. Thrust into the opening.

4. Thrust from L ochs at the face. This is, but does not have to be, a fake. Triangle step to the L and strike L zornhau at his head or R shoulder.

5. Fake a R zornhau at his head and continue into L pflug. If he moves the shield to deflect the blow there will be an opening at his lower R abdomen (your L). Thrust into the opening.

These were often successful moves. But I found, at least for me, that fighting against a S&amp;S was very hard to do with a longsword, particularly if the rules of the game assume you are unarmored and thus cannot take a hit anywhere. Perhaps it was my lack of experience (for I am just not that good).

Other things I thought of but have not tried:

1. Zwerchau to your R (his L) at his head and then twitch around to another zwerch. Somebody’s already mentioned this idea in this forum. I think it’s a good one. Wish I had understood zwerch at the time.

2. Zwerch to multiple openings, high and low. Also mentioned above, and I second the recommendation.

3. From boar’s tooth, strike a L underhau at the lower R (your L) edge of his shield. This should deflect the shield and place your point behind it just long enough to allow a thrust to the stomach.

[Patrick Hardin]

I have thrusted with spears and also hurled them against 3/8" plywood before. The most I could ever achieve with this was to have the spearhead stick out maybe an inch through the back. It was a heavy Greek-style spear too, not a light javelin. Some of you guys know how hard I can hit. <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" /> In my opinion, it will be nearly impossible to penetrate a 1/2" thick piece of plywood with a sword point. There's just too much material to pass through, and the grain structure of the wood dissipates the force of the impact. The weapon would either need a lot more mass, or a lot more speed than two human arms can generate.

Of course, at this point, one has to bring up the pilum. But that is a weapon with a very small head with a decent amount of mass giving it force. The smaller the point, the better the chance of penetration. So, in theory, you might be able to penetrate a shield with an estoc. But based on my limited experience, if you're dealing with wood half an inch thick, I doubt it. Of course, if you are fighting against sword &amp; shield with an estoc, we've probably left the realm of historical accuracy, since the estoc was designed vs. metal armor. Still, experimentation is good, right?

Patrick Hardin

[Casper Bradak]

So, in theory, you might be able to penetrate a shield with an estoc. But based on my limited experience, if you're dealing with wood half an inch thick, I doubt it. Of course, if you are fighting against sword &amp; shield with an estoc, we've probably left the realm of historical accuracy, since the estoc was designed vs. metal armor. Still, experimentation is good, right?

See my earlier post. They don't do much better than anything else.
Still, estocs were not designed vs metal armour persay, they were designed vs flesh and bone, for perforating bodies like any sword, but their particular design helps them get around armour easier, not through it. And shields were in use on the same fields of battle as estocs, there's no saying no one with an estoc ran into them.