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[Casper Bradak]

This is a reply to no one in particular, just a point that concerns "realism".
There are a lot of play and role play groups out there that pretend to "fight" within a massive rule structure. We don't pretend to fight.
We spar to improve our skills as martial artists, just like most other martial arts schools do, just like they did back then. To some this may seem more a matter of words than physical reality, but aside from the physical differences of sparring as opposed to pretending to fight, which in some cases may be minor, it's the mindset and the entire purpose, spirit and reality behind it that counts.
It's not about Sir Ted striking off Sir Joes arm, so Sir Joe must fight one handed, but Ted the free scholar landing a good strike and technique on Joe that may be effective in real life, allowing him the confidence and muscle memory and experience to use it in real combat (not that it's going to happen to any of us, but that's not the point).
I think these 2 concepts are still so muddled within the minds of such an extraordinary number of people when it comes to ren/medieval western martial arts as opposed to the common martial arts. This is basically just reitterating what John said. I sincerely hope this muddling of history and escapism ends soon, it's one of the major things I have had to put up with, and I'm sure so many of you have had to as well.
It's like students in a jujitsu school giving themselves medieval japanese names and dressing up pretending to be samurai, but they don't have that attached stigma, and it reflects pathetically on us and in my opinion on our modern cultures opinions on it's past. Like John said, for so many still claiming to be practitioners of these martial arts, it's merely something they can pay lip service to and continue to sell it as a dress up game with no real demonstration of effective skill.

[John_Clements]

Wow, ROTFL!
You should have forwarded me that one Stacey. That is hilarous. That's about as extreme as they come, and though I get ones like that once in awhile, I have not seen one that bad in a long time. Usually it's just some adolescent telling me how katanas cut through car doors and would slice knights in half like a lightsaber, or a sport fencer declaring with total conviction how his epee would stab circles around a greatsword because after all that's why old heavy swords were abandoned.

JC

[JeanryChandler]

Point taken, although there is some jousting and even fencing from horseback that is done, you right it's quite strictly regualted.

My point really though was that WMA fencing based on the fechtbuchs, A) doesn't exclusively have to do with knights by any means, B) that irregardless, knights didn't exclusively fight on horseback, particularly in the period the fechtbuchs were written, and C) the fechtbuchs mostly deal with civilian and judicial combat and rarely even touch on the military realm of fighting at all.

There is some mounted combat in the fechtbuchs but, and correct me if I'm wrong, most of what seems to me to be portrayed is fencing on foot, one on one. Very little if anything about mass combat.

Jeanry

[JeanryChandler]

It's like students in a jujitsu school giving themselves medieval japanese names and dressing up pretending to be samurai

This does put it in pretty grotesque perspective (although, the wierd names and other eccentric practices of the Gracie family did leap to my mind <img src="/forum/images/icons/tongue.gif" alt="" /> )

We definately have a job cut out for us separating ourselves from the cheezier aspects of the re-enactment communities, but their does not necessarily need to be contempt toward them or animosity between WMA and these groups because of this, any more than toward any other sports or recreational activities.

At the risk of getting showered in stones, we do owe something to these guys in terms of lineage, they pioneered the way for all their goofiness, though they made plenty of mistakes, they learned how to make armor, tested weapons etc. Though I never was personally, many important people who are now serious WMA reseachers and practitioners were once involved in historical re-enactment, SCA or even LARP groups. There is no reason we need to have animosity toward those groups, even though they may have animosity toward us for trying to take a more serious approach. Ultimately, the difference will become clear, and we'll be able to "all just get along" and do our own thing.

I also feel that some of the really serious re-enactment groups, like for example the Roman Group Leggio XX, do some research which could be of value to the HEMA community one day. Though they are not currently focused on martial arts so much, they do have a level of serious dedication in many cases in reconstructing the physical minutae of the period, which as J.A.A pointed out, can help illuminate our understanding of the martial arts of the ancient world. Certainly there is overlap with regard for example to understanding the physical properties of period arms and armor.

(ducking)

Jeanry

[Jaron Bernstein]

Some years ago I read a book that dealt with a number of traditional Japanese ryu. One of photographs (this was NOT a kendo school BTW, but a traditional school like it sounds like you are in) showed an outdoor training yard in Japan with 2 fellows with what looked to me like padded bokken and heavy gloves doing sparring.

So...I was wondering if it was an option for you to pad up some bokken, put on helmets and see if you teacher or class mates would consider doing some sparring. It certainly does bring ones deficiencies into clear light. I personally find that I can do "set piece" waster drills fine, but in sparring it doesn't work nearly as well. And ultimately the free play is our purpose here (learning to use a sword effectively). For a Japanese art there may be more of a spiritual aspect, but even with that I would hope that learning to actually use the blade against a resisting opponent would be part of that journey.

Just my 2 cent. <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

[JeffGentry]

Hey Shane

As for people training on horses for martial accuracy, can you imagine the bodies of the participants stacking up like cordwood?! A 1500 pound beast is one variable that could really make training quite interesting.I'm all for it!

The only problem i have with this is i would be reluctant o spend a few thousand dollar's on a horse then all the time training him, so that he could become a target in mounted combat in my way of thinking the horse would also be a target and i would be more concerned for the safety of my horse than my own safety, lol.

It would be great to do some mounted combat though.

Jeff

[Casper Bradak]

We definately have a job cut out for us separating ourselves from the cheezier aspects of the re-enactment communities, but their does not necessarily need to be contempt toward them or animosity between WMA and these groups because of this, any more than toward any other sports or recreational activities.

At the risk of getting showered in stones, we do owe something to these guys in terms of lineage, they pioneered the way for all their goofiness, though they made plenty of mistakes, they learned how to make armor, tested weapons etc. Though I never was personally, many important people who are now serious WMA reseachers and practitioners were once involved in historical re-enactment, SCA or even LARP groups. There is no reason we need to have animosity toward those groups, even though they may have animosity toward us for trying to take a more serious approach. Ultimately, the difference will become clear, and we'll be able to "all just get along" and do our own thing.

Don't confuse that for contempt. Well, not entirely. If taken in their own context, there's nothing wrong with them. Unfortunately, many, many of them don't take what they're doing in the proper context.
That, combined with the utter lack of actual practice of real renaissance martial arts since a bit of a resurgence in the victorian era, is what leads to the utter ignorance and confusion between the two issues.
Like you said, there are benefits, without SCAish type groups, we wouldn't have a plethora of armouries in the US for one thing, making a facet of these arts far less accessible to us, and a fraction of those they attract are interested in history.
Though contempt will get us nowhere fast, it's not always unjustified. I can't count the times I've heard those guys saying they're doing what was exactly done, and spouting nonsensical hearsay to the ignorant public with confidence. Back before I heard of RMA I spouted much of the same stuff because it was told to me by more "knowledgeable" individuals who supposedly studied history, so I took their word for it. I honestly believed I was a swordsman for a while there.
The difference was, I was a teenager, they weren't, I grew up and studied for myself, they're still playing games and spouting the same crap. An open mind and looking for yourself will get you a long way.

[J.Amiel_Angeles]

I've asked that question to a senior member before, and predictably, got an unsatisfactory answer. And I know enough not to ask it to the menkyo kaiden or the head teacher of my group.

The answer I got was initially evasive, I asked if the waza or the drills weren't 'choreographed' (I assume a bad choice of words) and after having done them I know there is very really danger involved if you don't do it correctly since we still are trying to hit each other. Still not the same though. I frankly don't understand why they won't take advantage of new technology that allows for realistic padded sparring if they follow some of the rules the WMA does about what constitutes a hit. The person I asked, a senior member and who is deeply into the history and culture of the Japanese told me studies have shown that these sorts of rote drills are actually more effective in combat because of how it ingrains technique and mindset. I guess this is true but looking how the Japanese performed in WW2 does tend to show its limitations. I guess it's just tradition now, too. I'd love to do drills with realistic padded weapons and within a proper historical context, but that suggestion is apparently anathema, at least in my ryu. It's not considered legitimate, etc... It's the culture. Go figure.

I also have to point out that for the purists among them, those look at historical continuity, modern EMA, like judo, taekwando or karate are not considered, well, real ryu anymore. The relation is now rather like fencing to WMA. They're sports, with safety rules and points and the whole shebang. It's not considered the same thing and this sort of rather contrived free sparring is avoided for the same reasons, I guess, why ARMA doesn't use sabers or foils.

[Jaron Bernstein]

"I've asked that question to a senior member before, and predictably, got an unsatisfactory answer. And I know enough not to ask it to the menkyo kaiden or the head teacher of my group."

Why not. Jake Norwood was quite willing to free spar (very well I might add) with us at the 1.0. Even in terms of EMA, I also study a traditional Chinese art and literally yesterday I was out there getting tossed around by my teacher. I see no reason why a teacher shouldn't be willing to get out there and play. It keeps the students humble and learning new things and keeps the teacher from getting complacent. It also keeps the art honest. Don't get me wrong, I DO think drills and forms have their very important place. I just think they are only part of the equation.

"The answer I got was initially evasive, I asked if the waza or the drills weren't 'choreographed' (I assume a bad choice of words) and after having done them I know there is very really danger involved if you don't do it correctly since we still are trying to hit each other. Still not the same though. I frankly don't understand why they won't take advantage of new technology that allows for realistic padded sparring if they follow some of the rules the WMA does about what constitutes a hit. The person I asked, a senior member and who is deeply into the history and culture of the Japanese told me studies have shown that these sorts of rote drills are actually more effective in combat because of how it ingrains technique and mindset."

That is not quite accurate. There are many different traditional Japanese ryu. Some spar and some don't. But there ARE "old style" ones that do spar (quite fearesomely I might add).

"I guess this is true but looking how the Japanese performed in WW2 does tend to show its limitations. I guess it's just tradition now, too. I'd love to do drills with realistic padded weapons and within a proper historical context, but that suggestion is apparently anathema, at least in my ryu. It's not considered legitimate, etc... It's the culture. Go figure."

I once spent a year of my life learning the tai chi sword form. The instructor never mentioned a single application. It was a waste of my time as a martial art (albeit not as a health exercise).

"I also have to point out that for the purists among them, those look at historical continuity, modern EMA, like judo, taekwando or karate are not considered, well, real ryu anymore. The relation is now rather like fencing to WMA. They're sports, with safety rules and points and the whole shebang. It's not considered the same thing and this sort of rather contrived free sparring is avoided for the same reasons, I guess, why ARMA doesn't use sabers or foils."

That is why I mention that book (whose name eludes me <img src="/forum/images/icons/crazy.gif" alt="" /> at the moment). This was NOT a modern "sportified" art. It was one of the last vestiges of the how many various Japanese sword/spear/hacking people schools. 2 old guys in a rather shabby looking Japanese training yard. Not with shinai and with no armor. Just padded bokken and big mitten looking things. It struck me that was very much NOT a modern "do" thing and more of a "jitsu" one and it DID include what looked to me a lot like sparring.

You might enjoy reading anything by Donn Draeger or Robert W. Smith if you get the chance for what I am speaking of.

Be well,
J. <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

[ChrisThies]

It is difficult to rationalize getting off of the fence - and beginning to study historical fencing - when there is no active ARMA study group nearby. There may never be an accessible ARMA study group near you.
It is even more difficult to rationalize the study of historical personal combative methods, particularly those that are focused upon the usage of outdated edged weapons.
But when one's interest in the historical how, and one's desire to be able to actually do, exceeds one's reluctance, then the ARMA organization of members - and its resources - are there to facilitate anyone's further discovery of historical fencing.
Every 'solo' ARMA member has overcome these initial causes of hesitancy, essentially deciding that to study and train alone is better than not to study or train at all. 'Solo' study, utilizing ARMA methods and resources, will improve your understanding and ability. And when opportunities occur to get together with other practitioners from other counties, states, or even countries, then all time spent 'solo' training will be noticeable. It would be great to see you - or any other interested historical fencer - there at one of those occasions.

[david welch]

As for people training on horses for martial accuracy, can you imagine the bodies of the participants stacking up like cordwood?! A 1500 pound beast is one variable that could really make training quite interesting.I'm all for it!

Hey, Shane.

I think we said something about this at Jakes event down at our place.

You can do it, but to do it safe you would have to fight at a barrier. And in that case you might as well be on foot.

Of the horses I experimented with, two didn't really care for fighting. You could force them to close, but by the time you started fighting they would separate back to a long range and them you would have to close again. Close, strike. Close, strike. Close, strike.

The one horse, though. Our stallion decided he liked it. When he saw me coming with a waster he would start trembling. Unfortunately... when horses fight they kick, strike, ram, and they can bite your arms off. Really. Also, horses are fight or flight animals. So if you tell them they can't run, they fight. So with even a dummy, when he though I was in a real fight he would attack it too. We just had to stop before it got dangerous and someone got killed. You can't convince a horse it is just sparring. They go all or nothing.

Now, you could park two horses close together and spar or drill while you are sitting on them( see: Medieval Times). But as far as I see it that is completely pointless.

[DavidEvans]

I think that would be the desired effect! If I remember correctly the better off knight would have a a number of different horses, for ordinary A to B riding, hunting, day to day warfare and the big "Battle Only" Horse. Usually a stallion, usually trained to fight (Think Spanish Riding School plus bite, kick, stomp). So, your stallion was merely doing what the knight would have wanted to do. Makes the idea of flocking around knightly horse just a little more amusing!

[david welch]

Well David,

for combat that would be the desired effect. Unfortunatly, to me it shows the biggest hurdle there is to training like they would have.

Even now, in training for combat there is an exceptable number of training casualties. Since I don't have surfs, enemies, or prisoners that I can "feed" to my horse, and since I am not really training for combat and refuse to allow that kind of risk of training casualties to my friends, family, myself, and lastly to the horses themselves real "knightly" horse combat seems to be just too dangerous.

[Casper Bradak]

Those training casualties would not have been acceptable back then, along with illegal, and refused in the first place most likely. The primary methods of training for mounted combat were tourney, pell (turks head, quintain, etc.), and wooden horse (for training beginners and working against a live opponent). Casualties happened in tourney, but they were certainly willing.
Not to mention real trained horses, which we lack.

[JeanryChandler]

Training casualties unacceptable or "illegal"? We must have read about a different medieval Europe... or maybe, we are just thinking of different periods or different specific places. Illegal according to whom? Since most of Europe was ruled by the very men who were fighting, and few areas had any strict centralized authority especially with regard to Knights...?

Early Medieval tournaments and melees, which were largely what passed for sparring in those days, were routinely conducted as something very close to a small war, with casualties and deaths expected, over large areas such as an entire parish, sometimes lasting several days.

Even the basic step of introducing rebated weapons was by no means immediate or universally accepted, and it took centuries before the notion of "A Plaisance" evolved to the degree that it did in the late Renaissance when knights conducted even ground combat across a fence (the latter practice being much derided by many of the Masters)

Sparring in those days was a rough and tumble affair and the borderline between a playful romp and a fight to the death could be narrow indeed. I blelieve they largely relied on the effectiveness of their armor to protect them from being killed.

And as for killing serfs in the midst of all the often drunken fun, again, it varied with time and from region to region, but this was hardly a major crime in much of Europe through most of the Medieval and Renaissance period. It remained so in Russia until the mid 19th century...

It is also worth noting that pseudo military sports were conducted among peasants themselives in a similarly extreme manner as well. "Hurling" type games in Ireland for example were sometimes fought between whole villages, over a vast area, in periods of three to four days (for one goal), and could be used to decide issues under contention such as grazing grounds or placement of walls or bridges. This kind of thing went on in most parts of Europe and is another equally important part of our WMA heritage, as few of us are likely descended from Knights.

Jeanry