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JeanryChandler
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Re: The History and Heritage Article

Postby JeanryChandler » Tue Nov 16, 2004 5:06 pm

Also,

I don't mean to be a buzz kill, as all this speculation about fighting from horseback is interesting. But if you are speaking of the fechtbuchs, isn't it true that virtually none of the material in them deals with battlefield military combat at all, and that a very small porportion of it deals with fighting from horseback? I have only seen a few of them but this seemed to be the opinion of Dr Anglo in his overview "The Martial Arts of Renaissance Europe"

If we are working from the assumption, which seems to be stated in Johns article, that the fechtbuchs are our one true source of information, then the very idea of re-creating knightly military combat is almost as silly (from this perspective at least) as SCA guys calling themselves Sir Tankard and swaggering around speaking in poor Elizabethan accents?

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Casper Bradak
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Re: The History and Heritage Article

Postby Casper Bradak » Tue Nov 16, 2004 7:41 pm

I didn't say training casualties were unacceptable or illegal, I said they were even expected. I said "those kinds" referring to forcing peasants and serfs and such to fight you and your horse.
Forcing a serf or peasant to face off against you and your horse would've been considered murder, not training, and a damn foolish way to train given the normal methods and customs. Regardless of arguments some may make, serfs were not slaves and they had rights. Regardless of how seriously it would be taken, murder was a crime in all places and times I can recall. (which could go off on the tangent of the "Royalty delighted in burning their own villages and raping and murdering their own subjects" vs the historical evidence/common sense crowd debate)
Early medieval tournaments and melees were tournaments and melees, no matter how rough, and not to be confused with sparring or mundane martial arts practice of the time. Sparring was a seperate affair, and far less dangerous, not to be confused with tourney combat. The tourney was neither the only nor the primary method of training in the martial arts, and less a training method than an event in the eyes of most participants.
Otherwise, they would only train when their equipment and well being was on the line, only once every few months, and only by travelling constantly.
The combat between strangers a plaisance may not have been custom for a couple of hundred years, but in normal training it certainly was, though it would not have been called that, it would've been an entirely different situation.
Like I said, all manner of military sports were conducted among many social classes, there are a few good articles on them here, but to compare them with the normal training is absurd. Most of your reply was an unrelated tangent (I don't mean that in a bad way).
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Casper Bradak
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Re: The History and Heritage Article

Postby Casper Bradak » Tue Nov 16, 2004 7:52 pm

There are many, many medieval books on the art of war, not dealing with personal technique as in the fencing manuals, but with large scale tactics, strategy and logistics.
I could be wrong but I think there are good original sources on using a mount in various military applications.
If you were trained to use a horse in combat, and trained to use a sword, and wanted to learn more/cool techniques without a master, that's where the fencing manuals come in that deal with it.
I think it's definitely valid to study the arts of combat on horseback, but it's obvious that you cannot do so exclusively from the fencing manuals.
So, in regards to the art of war and horsemanship, the fencing manuals are not the one true source, only one of the true sources.
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Re: The History and Heritage Article

Postby david welch » Tue Nov 16, 2004 8:13 pm

I would be interested in reading the documentation for the trial of an English knight in France, or of a Norman in England, that decided to ride a new horse through a crowd of unarmed, fleeing villagers just to make sure it was willing to trample a couple of people to death. That would be an interesting prosecution. Or at least to the relevant laws that would make it illegal.
"A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand." Lucius Annaeus Seneca 4BC-65AD.

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Re: The History and Heritage Article

Postby JeanryChandler » Tue Nov 16, 2004 8:33 pm

Yeah, it's obvious we have different understanding of history. I have a different opinion on how Aristocrats viewed peasants in the middle ages. They certainly did seem to kill them pretty often in those history books I have read, (which are almost all military histories written by soldiers and generals) One tiny example kind of in the vein is the way the Conquistadors reacted to indians in the New world, I remember Bernal Diaz reported that soldiers tested their swords sharpness by cutting indians.

I could cite similar anecdotes from all over Europe, particularly against serfs, as opposed to peasants who had more rights.

But to be fair, knights loved to kill each other too. I don't consider that revisionist, just hard reality. The world was a mean place in those days.


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Re: The History and Heritage Article

Postby JeanryChandler » Tue Nov 16, 2004 8:35 pm

I would be interested in reading the documentation for the trial of an English knight in France, or of a Norman in England, that decided to ride a new horse through a crowd of unarmed, fleeing villagers just to make sure it was willing to trample a couple of people to death.


You struck the nail on the head. Or the peasant on the head.

Because thats what serfs and peasants were, they were generally conquered people from other tribes. This went back to Classical times and before, and it's one of the reasons the warrior class often held them in such contempt.

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Re: The History and Heritage Article

Postby Casper Bradak » Tue Nov 16, 2004 8:49 pm

I guess your views are just how you take it. I could come up with just as many refutations from the works of soldiers and generals.
Anyway, medieval laws have been often published and readily available, and there was never a time in history where they were not extant. It was neither an anarchy nor a japaneseesque situation where the lord could kill his subjects at will, and though enforcement varied somewhat from time, place, and situation, they were not for decoration.
Peasants and serfs were generally the local non-noble population, not imported unless they travelled, nor conquered unless their country was. I consider the current views of "hard reality" to be often beyond reality. People often now ignore the normal aspects and cite convenient and specific happenings, 99% of the time entirely out of context, and claim it was the common part of a hard, brutish, anarchic, blood thirsty and rabid time that was medieval europe, until the sudden flowering of the renaissance, when people stopped thinking patchwork leather, mail, D rings, furs and dirt were the hot fashion item, all in defiance of historical evidence and even common sense.
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Re: The History and Heritage Article

Postby JeanryChandler » Tue Nov 16, 2004 9:20 pm

I don't mean to beat this to death, but I just have one question. If a norman lord in say, 12th century sicily, got drunk and killed a peasant or two for the hell of it, precisely who enforced the law prohibiting this action? For that matter, who interevened when Vlad Tepes impaled anyone who looked at him funny in Wallachia? Or when Cesare Borgia decided to shoot a peasant with his new arquebus?

The only reason I'm arguing this, is I think it is important to understand the period without layering modern conceptions over it to make it more palatable. Part of what makes WMA is so effective is that the times were so harsh.

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Re: The History and Heritage Article

Postby Casper Bradak » Tue Nov 16, 2004 9:42 pm

I dont' mind the talk, I just wish I were an expert, but I'm no medieval lawyer and I have to look it up. You are citing specific occurences, not normalcy.
Context and specific local situation are important. Vlad was the boss. The only ones to tell him different were the lords of different countries, who did fight him, imprison him, and eventually kill him. His sheer brutality kept most revolts out of the question. He was hard to get to, but his actions had consequences by those he wronged.
I don't know who Cesare Borgia was.
A 12th c norman lord in cicily, is he the lord of cicily? I'll assume he is to simplify the context. It's an uncommon situation, even if he were a sociopath, simply due to basic ruling practice. But, if he were the top of the pyramid, and could not show the victims did him no wrong, and wanted to avoid civil unrest, he'd probably be forced into compensating the victims families physically (it'd be equally or more problematic for someone of common station). But the nature of the feudal system leaves no one unaccountable, and the commoners would likely seek compensation or enforcement through the other lords if he would not.
It's a good call not layering on modern conceptions, but to understand the period you also need to study the laws, government, customs and culture, not just accounts of brutality and battles, or you're looking at the situations through a peephole.
The times could be harsh no doubt, but don't go overboard or base your views only on the harsh parts.
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david welch
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Re: The History and Heritage Article

Postby david welch » Tue Nov 16, 2004 9:56 pm

These excerpts are from The Chronicle of Louth Park Abbey, trans. A.R. Maddison (Publications of the Lincolnshire Record Society vol.1, 1889)

"1337 - In the year of our Lord 1337, King Edward crossed over to Flanders. Then he entered the city of Cologne where reconciliation took place between him and the Emperor of Bavaria, and he entered into alliance with the Brabantines and Flemings, at whose instigation he plunged into war with France. Then he wasted with fire and sword the North parts of France as far as Tournai. "


"1341 - In the year of our Lord 1341, the King of England, plundered, destroyed, and burnt 1705 villages in the Kingdom of France, each having a parish church, with the exception of the castles and manors of the great lords, and other fortresses. And he waited for Philip of Valois, King of the French, for two whole days, in the open field, but he was unwilling to come."

I'll find more.

Stacy, we seem to have hijacked John's thread. Would you break this off on it's own, please.

Thanks.
"A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand." Lucius Annaeus Seneca 4BC-65AD.

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Re: The History and Heritage Article

Postby JeffGentry » Tue Nov 16, 2004 11:53 pm

Hey David
Good call, i am enjoying this, i'll give some of my own opinion's once this is transfered.

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Matt Shields
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Re: The History and Heritage Article

Postby Matt Shields » Wed Nov 17, 2004 1:08 am

Casper Bradak said:
There are many, many medieval books on the art of war, not dealing with personal technique as in the fencing manuals, but with large scale tactics, strategy and logistics.


I don't want to get in the middle of your argument, but I'm quite interested in this idea, and have never heard of these books before, could you cite any sources? Are these along the lines of Sun Tzu's proverbs, or are they more like accounts of famous battles and other specific historical incidents?

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Aaron Pynenberg
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Re: The History and Heritage Article

Postby Aaron Pynenberg » Wed Nov 17, 2004 3:02 am

This gets me thinking about King Henry going through wives like I change socks, he got sick of them, they were not producing son's so he trumped up some charges and had them beheaded. Maybe this scenario kind of ties in to both arguments, King needed to trump up charges first before having them killed- just a muse- Aaron
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David Craig
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Re: The History and Heritage Article

Postby David Craig » Wed Nov 17, 2004 7:25 am

But the nature of the feudal system leaves no one unaccountable, and the commoners would likely seek compensation or enforcement through the other lords if he would not.
It's a good call not layering on modern conceptions, but to understand the period you also need to study the laws, government, customs and culture, not just accounts of brutality and battles, or you're looking at the situations through a peephole.
The times could be harsh no doubt, but don't go overboard or base your views only on the harsh parts.


There are a couple of problems with this argument. First of all, in most of medieval Europe there was nothing like what we would consider a strong central government. Even in England, one of the more centralized of feudal states, the king's power still rested to a great extent on the cooperation of local vassals. In places like France, or the HRE, authority was far more decentralized, with individual lords ruling small towns, and even an entire group, the imperial knights, basically acting as one person countries. The feudal lords of each area were, in effect, the law. They decided how it would be enforced and they had the military power to back up their decisions.
There are numerous historical examples of nobles abusing their authority. Jeanry has cited a couple of them. Rather than being unusual exceptions, given the disparity of power between lords and subjects, I feel that it would be reasonable to assume that such abuse was more common than has been documented, not less. A commoner being able to appeal mistreatment to another lord, ie his lord's lord or the king, would have been unusual. Unless the commoner was A. wealthy or B. had the support of a powerful patron (such as the Church) , the likelihood of him achieving redress against his lord would have been extremely low. I would like to see some historical examples of any cases where those factors were not present. I believe the historical evidence we have strongly supports an assumption that a knight or other noble, could kill a peasant or two, and suffer no retribution, as long as the person he killed was one of his own subjects and not that of another lord. And note, I'm am writing specifically of the peasants who made up the majority of medieval populations, not of townpeople who form a special case.

The main recourse of peasants was rebellion if abuse was systemic. However, if you examine what happed after various peasant rebellions, the main concern of the aristocracy was not to redress grievances, it was to slaughter the peasants for daring to rebel in the first place.
Incidentally just so you know I'm not just spouting off the top of my head, I have B.A. &amp; M.A. in history and am A.B.D. on a PhD. I am not an expert on medieval history, but I have studied it and taught it to undergrads -- for what that's worth, which may not be much <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />. Everything that I have seen though, does essentially support the view that the medieval aristocracy was, what we would consider "above the law," when it came to dealing with the peasantry.

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Re: The History and Heritage Article

Postby David Craig » Wed Nov 17, 2004 8:16 am

Casper,

Here's a hypothetical example to illustrate why I think you are mistaken. Let's assume you are Reichsritter Caspar von Bradak. As an imperial knight, part of your holdings include a small German village. I'm a peasant in your village. And let's assume even that I have more status than the average peasant. I'm a freeman who owns a small plot of land. I and my sons are walking the dirt track back to my house after a day in the fields. You happen to be riding back to your manor after a lousy day of hunting and are in a foul mood. Our paths cross. One of my sons is slow in getting out of your way and you ram your spear through him. He dies. So what are my options for justice?

I can go to you and ask for compensation. Assuming you are a decent guy and regret what you did, I might get it. But what if you aren't and tell me to get lost? I could go to the village elders, ask them for help. If they agree, they might approach you. Again though, what if you refuse any restitution or offer only a meaningless token? Then what can I do? I could complain to the local priest, but likely he's going to tell me that God will hold you accountable for murder in the hereafter, but there's nothing that can be done in the here and now. Ok, so what about going over your head to your lord? Let's assume I even know who your lord is. I'm not sure most peasants would be up on all of the often complex web of lord-vassal relationships. But as it so happens your lord is the Emperor. How am I going to make my way to the Imperial Court? And even if I could, why would the Emperor even grant a hearing to me, let alone consider my case against you? I'm just a nobody from far away.

So do I have any other options? Well, I can't challenge you to a duel since I'm a commoner and that would be an act of rebellion. And even if I could you'd easily kill me. So basically I could either try to catch you unaware and murder you, making me an outlaw if I succeeded, or I could get on with life.

David Craig


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