Thought's on WMA training

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Jaron Bernstein
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Re: Thought's on WMA training

Postby Jaron Bernstein » Tue Dec 21, 2004 10:35 pm

"i would love to have a training partner who is willing to get together 4 or 5 time's a week for a couple hour's, there are so many subtle thing's to this art that i feel can only be learned by working with someone else, the solo drill's are great they can only take you so far though, and i do not personaly know anyone willing to put that much time into this, i am only wondering why? "

Hi Jeff (the younger), <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

If I could retire tomorrow and devote my days to martial arts and reading.....

As it is life intervenes. I find myself doing massacring the air with great frequency with my Sempach. The big problem with our study group seems to be getting people in one place at one time with everyone's schedules.

Regarding the "formal discipline" approach to training: I am not so sure that standing at attention and doing military type drill stuff is such a good idea. If you need to do it for the military, fine, but on my free time I don't have a problem with the dreaded "gaggle". Mind ye, I have no patience for just sitting around and wasting time. To my mind, training time is for working techniques and sparring with other live humans that you can't do alone in your back yard solo drills. I just don't see why good intense training can't be done in a more relaxed manner. Also, I don't want to drive people away by doing formal "on command, left face" type things. This is a voluntary art after all.

Of course that speaks more for the efficacy of the training. As for would it look good for recruiting? I don't know. We are having some recruiting problems (or rather lack of new people to put it more correctly).

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JeffGentry
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Re: Thought's on WMA training

Postby JeffGentry » Tue Dec 21, 2004 11:57 pm

Hey Jaron

you know where i live and i don't go to work until 3:00 pm, i'm here every morning when you get off work and head home at 7:30 am, let me know about what time you'll be here, i'll put on a pot of coffee, i don't need fifteen people to work out with all i need is one, if we get better than the rest of the group so be it no skin off my nose.


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David_Knight
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Re: Thought's on WMA training

Postby David_Knight » Wed Dec 22, 2004 12:10 am

Regarding the "formal discipline" approach to training: I am not so sure that standing at attention and doing military type drill stuff is such a good idea. If you need to do it for the military, fine, but on my free time I don't have a problem with the dreaded "gaggle". Mind ye, I have no patience for just sitting around and wasting time. To my mind, training time is for working techniques and sparring with other live humans that you can't do alone in your back yard solo drills. I just don't see why good intense training can't be done in a more relaxed manner. Also, I don't want to drive people away by doing formal "on command, left face" type things. This is a voluntary art after all.


I think you're misunderstanding me. I'm not proposing that we militarize ARMA. Everything I mentioned is found in EMA training; I only likened my ideas to the US military to show that there is an equivalent in the Western martial tradition, and that by adopting practices that the public expects from martial arts organizations, we would not be "Asianizing" ARMA.

If we do not treat our studies as true fighting arts that can contend with EMA on every level, then what are we training for? If we cannot prove to others that we are not just geeky SCA spinoffs trying to look cool in the park on Sundays, then why train at all?

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Aaron Pynenberg
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Re: Thought's on WMA training

Postby Aaron Pynenberg » Wed Dec 22, 2004 4:42 am

David, I also tend to agree with this philosophy, I like things a little more structured and purposeful. I think everyone's ideas are great and would like to incorporate a little bit of all of it to our groups' training regime.

Quick question, we have been having alot of brand new folks show up and when they do I will find myself catering to them a bit, slowing things down for the rest. How do you guys effectively get new people up to speed with the rest, I read some of the other groups suggestions, in line with this question but was wondering if anyone had set up specific training for the new folks?
-Aaron
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Doug Marnick
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Re: Thought's on WMA training

Postby Doug Marnick » Wed Dec 22, 2004 5:31 am

Although seeking a consistent structure and perhaps displaying a banner are ideas that I support, I humbly caution against doing things solely for the benefit of observers. The purpose of training is to benefit each person engaged in the training, not to increase the potential of recruitment. Although attracting more people to WMA would be great, we should not train in such a way as to make the sights and sounds more attractive unless it benefits the learning and practice of the martial artists involved. However, if we keep the priorities in place, I am confident that there is a happy medium whereby we could continue to improve and unify our training systems as well as enjoy the by-product of attracting new members.
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Jaron Bernstein
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Re: Thought's on WMA training

Postby Jaron Bernstein » Wed Dec 22, 2004 6:24 am

"I think you're misunderstanding me. I'm not proposing that we militarize ARMA. Everything I mentioned is found in EMA training; I only likened my ideas to the US military to show that there is an equivalent in the Western martial tradition, and that by adopting practices that the public expects from martial arts organizations, we would not be "Asianizing" ARMA."

Hola <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

I have seen EMA classes that range from a very paramilitary Tae Kwon Do class (with people literally standing at attention) to a Tai Chi class with people just kind of wandering around in the dreaded gaggle. As for what WMA class structure (formal or not) should be like....is there any extant record of what a typical day in fechschul looked like?

"If we do not treat our studies as true fighting arts that can contend with EMA on every level, then what are we training for?"

To be able to compete at the sharp (ok, bad pun <img src="/forum/images/icons/smirk.gif" alt="" /> ) end of things. I don't care so much if we have pretty uniforms and compete with the beauty of our garments or manners. I DO care if you put us the salle with an EMA guy we can hold our own and then some. Hell even in the EMA world there are many arts that don't really go for the "costume" stuff. My taiji instructor work sweatpants and t-shirt. I wrestle in blue jeans (that is what I would be wearing in real life application so I train that way).

" If we cannot prove to others that we are not just geeky SCA spinoffs trying to look cool in the park on Sundays, then why train at all?"

I train to improve my skills in a cultural framework that is closer to my heritage and just as martially valid. I can see your point that if we don't look good, then people won't get past the "who are those wierd guys in the park?" stage, but IMO that is just really more form than function. Sure, it has value in getting people to look at us, but beyond that I don't see it as so useful.

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David Craig
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Re: Thought's on WMA training

Postby David Craig » Wed Dec 22, 2004 9:25 am

Interesting thread. Although I favor some organization in training, in general I largely agree with the points Jaron has been making. In my opinion, there are a number of things to keep in mind:

From what I've seen, ARMA study groups vary wildly in composition. Some have younger people, some older, and some have just a few people. One structure or outlook doesn't fit all. Not every group has highly experienced members or leaders. Some have people who are all roughly on the same level. Since ARMA is by its nature a large umbrella organization, not a specific school or salle, it would be very difficult to set up rigid standards that would apply to every group.

A significant number of people interested in WMA are not interested in EMA and prefer an informal approach. And they regard things like excessive deference to leaders, regimentation, titles, rigid uniform requirements, and formality in general as unnecessary bs. Start incorporating such things and you may attract some people, but you will also repel others.

As for what the public thinks... I personally don't care. I'm outside daily doing solo practice in full view of the street. I routinely get weird looks from passersby and have cars slowing down to see what I'm up to. Who knows what they think? But why should we care? If they want to know they can ask. I'm study WMA to advance my own knowledge, as a personal achievement, and ultimately because I enjoy it. The opinions of casual, uniformed onlookers mean nothing to me.

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Re: Thought's on WMA training

Postby JeffGentry » Wed Dec 22, 2004 10:46 am

Hey Doug

The purpose of training is to benefit each person engaged in the training, not to increase the potential of recruitment. Although attracting more people to WMA would be great, we should not train in such a way as to make the sights and sounds more attractive unless it benefits the learning and practice of the martial artists involved


I agree that the way we structure our prctice should not be done to impress the public, i think most group's that meet once a week need to make the most of there time, the more structured and organized it is the more they could benefit from that time, i think the biggest thing though is what training is done aside from our group meeting and how we train as individual's, the quality of that training will effect how each group train's, our indiviuald intensity is in some respect's what will drive the group in alot of case's.


also if the member's go to the member's area and read the inteview with JC i think it would shed some light on some of thing's John see's for our group, and from what i have seen i do agree with his thinking on how we should train and why.


Jeff
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David_Knight
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Re: Thought's on WMA training

Postby David_Knight » Wed Dec 22, 2004 10:58 am

Although seeking a consistent structure and perhaps displaying a banner are ideas that I support, I humbly caution against doing things solely for the benefit of observers. The purpose of training is to benefit each person engaged in the training, not to increase the potential of recruitment. Although attracting more people to WMA would be great, we should not train in such a way as to make the sights and sounds more attractive unless it benefits the learning and practice of the martial artists involved.


Agreed, and I think that we can definitely find some happy mediums in that respect.

For example, I really like Houston's "white tshirts in back, red tshirts in front" concept because it serves many practical functions:
  • It gives newcomers that are not self-starters the short term goal of "earning" their red shirt, thereby motivating them to learn the basic foundation of the ARMA curriculum.
  • It visually separates beginners from more advanced students in an obvious way, which is useful for PR purposes because it fulfills the public's "visual signs of rank" expectation (without overemphasizing rank).
  • It provides the basis for a class structure that is conducive to teaching; a beginner standing behind an advanced student will instantly know who to watch and be able to mimic someone who is facing the same direction as they are, while the study group leader can continue to face the class and make corrections.

Repeating guards and strikes aloud during basic cut exercises is useful because:
  • It is a proven, highly effective way to drill that information into everyone's memory
  • It encourages deep breathing, expands the diaphragm, encourages enthusiasm, and increases confidence, all of which are important to a fighter.
  • It draws positive attention to our group by fulfilling another expectation of martial arts schools: the "kiai!", verbal acknowledgement of instruction, etc., which again is found in the Western military tradition as well as EMA.
...is there any extant record of what a typical day in fechschul looked like?


Excellent question. I have been unable to find any records of actual training techniques. Most of the writing I've found on the Marxbruder and other guilds discusses their training only in a very general sense. In fact, to my knowledge there is very little record of actual medieval military training regimens... Does anyone know of a good source?

To be able to compete at the sharp (ok, bad pun) end of things. I don't care so much if we have pretty uniforms and compete with the beauty of our garments or manners. I DO care if you put us the salle with an EMA guy we can hold our own and then some. Hell even in the EMA world there are many arts that don't really go for the "costume" stuff. My taiji instructor work sweatpants and t-shirt. I wrestle in blue jeans (that is what I would be wearing in real life application so I train that way).

Not advocating costumes. Just something along the lines of what Houston is doing. I've trained in an EMA school that favors sweatpants and tshirts instead of traditional garb, and I preferred it. I don't want to give up my exercise gear. I agree that our ultimate goal is being able to hold our own in a fight, but unfortunately there are a lot of people who become interested in martial arts for other reasons (exercise, discipline, self-confidence, whatever). If we cannot meet all of these expectations, then we will always be a "historical swordfighting group", not a "martial arts group." It may not be right, it may not be fair, but it's reality.

A significant number of people interested in WMA are not interested in EMA and prefer an informal approach. And they regard things like excessive deference to leaders, regimentation, titles, rigid uniform requirements, and formality in general as unnecessary bs. Start incorporating such things and you may attract some people, but you will also repel others.

As Katherine wrote in one of the first posts, we don't seem to be attracting as "martial" a crowd as we'd like, and I believe this is largely due to our lack of an appropriately martial structure throughout the organization.
The mystical pomp and circumstance of EMA is unnecessary, and yes there are many study groups that are too small or lack experience, but a large group with no discernible structure gets no respect. Again, that's just the way it is. Furthermore, I would question why we bother to distinguish ourselves as the most "hardcore" WMA organization if we are as a whole unwilling to really set ourselves apart from the rest and acknowledge that we are learning historical combat arts; it is appropriate, IMO, to train for what was a knight's art by incorporating certain functional training concepts from our military heritage, which in the US is a combination of British and Prussian traditions that ultimately descend from Rome and Greece. We don't have to take it to extremes, but there is a very clear precedent in our history for structured training. How can we selectively pick and choose which aspects of historical European fighting systems we should preserve and expect to be taken seriously?

Well, I think that's enough ranting and raving for one morning...

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Re: Thought's on WMA training

Postby JeffGentry » Wed Dec 22, 2004 11:26 am

hey David

Not advocating costumes. Just something along the lines of what Houston is doing. I've trained in an EMA school that favors sweatpants and tshirts instead of traditional garb, and I preferred it. I don't want to give up my exercise gear. I agree that our ultimate goal is being able to hold our own in a fight, but unfortunately there are a lot of people who become interested in martial arts for other reasons (exercise, discipline, self-confidence, whatever). If we cannot meet all of these expectations, then we will always be a "historical swordfighting group", not a "martial arts group." It may not be right, it may not be fair, but it's reality.


if we train with intensity all the above will be covered, because it is the nature of combat that those who lack these usualy die, the military has a saying for PT "the more we sweat in peace the less we bleed in war", i am not here to be someone's personal trainer and therapist for there self confidence issue's, either they want to learn to kick ass and have there's kicked occasionaly and learn from that or they don't.

one quick question in that regard is if people want to get in shape and build confidence and all the other stuff why not find a gym and learn to box we all no that is a very effective, and it is in the main stream they show it every weekend on HBO? i think the answer in part is that we have a good idea how boxer's train and they sparr alot ie they beat each other up in training, and most don't want to get beat up.

I would question why we bother to distinguish ourselves as the most "hardcore" WMA organization if we are as a whole unwilling to really set ourselves apart from the rest and acknowledge that we are learning historical combat arts; it is appropriate, IMO, to train for what was a knight's art by incorporating certain functional training concepts from our military heritage, which in the US is a combination of British and Prussian traditions that ultimately descend from Rome and Greece.


I do agree totaly with this view, the people who trained with this were going to use it fully in combat to kill or be killed and i doubt that they lacked any intensity or dedication in there training we do not have the benefit of any given "Master", i think if we were to go watch a high school wrestling team train we would be embarassed by what they do in there practice and what occur's in our's ringen/wrestling practice and we are supposed to be using an art that is for defense from grave bodily harm? just doesn't seem right to me a high school kid who train's hard then most of us and we think our training is special.

ok enough of my rant for now.

Jeff
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David Craig
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Re: Thought's on WMA training

Postby David Craig » Wed Dec 22, 2004 1:02 pm

David,

Repeating guards and strikes aloud during basic cut exercises is useful...


I agree. But I question the worth of doing a lot of basic cuts that could better be done in solo practice. Obviously if you have new people or those who can't practice on their own, it is necessary. To me group time is valuable precisely because it gives us the chance to practice with partners. I'd rather work solo stuff on my own time. But again, it depends on the group.

As Katherine wrote in one of the first posts, we don't seem to be attracting as "martial" a crowd as we'd like, and I believe this is largely due to our lack of an appropriately martial structure throughout the organization.


I may be misinterpreting what you are saying, but it appears that you are advocating narrowing the organization to try to only attract those with a "martial" approach. What about those who join based on other interests? Also, it is quite possible that people who join who are not "martial" might become so if their interest is strong enough. For example, when I first joined and started practicing I had the idea that, among other things, this would be good exercise and help get me into better shape. However, I soon realized that unless I got into better shape that I could not adequately perform the techniques, and therefore started working out. In other words, I had to start treating this as a martial art that required physical preparation outside of just practicing techniques -- just as I would if I wanted to take up Judo or whatever.

If we cannot meet all of these expectations, then we will always be a "historical swordfighting group", not a "martial arts group." It may not be right, it may not be fair, but it's reality.


I don't see these two descriptions as mutually exclusive. Historical fencing is a martial art.

How can we selectively pick and choose which aspects of historical European fighting systems we should preserve and expect to be taken seriously?


But we are doing this. We choose which weapons to concentrate on, and which time periods to study. Some choose to focus on particular masters or traditions. There is no one overall way to do things. How does this preclude us being taken seriously?

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Re: Thought's on WMA training

Postby David Craig » Wed Dec 22, 2004 1:18 pm

Jeff,

one quick question in that regard is if people want to get in shape and build confidence and all the other stuff why not find a gym and learn to box we all no that is a very effective, and it is in the main stream they show it every weekend on HBO? i think the answer in part is that we have a good idea how boxer's train and they sparr alot ie they beat each other up in training, and most don't want to get beat up.


I used to box some when I was a kid and it certainly gets you into shape. However, I think the main reason people aren't going to do something like that is not necessarily because they don't want to get beat up, but because they don't have the time or the money. And because they have other responsibilities that prevent them from taking on too many interests -- let alone something as demanding as boxing.

It is useful to keep in mind that not everyone joining ARMA is young, full of energy, and possessed of lots of free time. Many people have difficulty making it to even a couple group sessions a month, because of job &amp; family obligations, among other things.

i think if we were to go watch a high school wrestling team train we would be embarassed by what they do in there practice and what occur's in our's ringen/wrestling practice and we are supposed to be using an art that is for defense from grave bodily harm? just doesn't seem right to me a high school kid who train's hard then most of us and we think our training is special.


That would be true even if you observed highschool football practice, let alone wrestling. But we aren't training for competition or as a team. It appears to me that throughout ARMA, and WMA as a whole, that people take this up for all sorts of reasons, and have widely varying expectations and goals.

David Craig

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Re: Thought's on WMA training

Postby David_Knight » Wed Dec 22, 2004 2:22 pm

Historical fencing is a martial art.


I know that, you know that, but John Q. Public doesn't know that. That's the whole point.

I may be misinterpreting what you are saying, but it appears that you are advocating narrowing the organization to try to only attract those with a "martial" approach.


What I was trying to say is that most of the people I know in ARMA (myself included) had prior interests in non-traditional martial arts, swords, sport fencing, LARP, SCA, military history, etc. In other words, they were already predisposed to accept that what ARMA does is legit. That's generally not the case with EMA; EMA schools attract a wide range of people from all walks of life simply by virtue of being EMA schools. They don't have to prove anything to anyone to be accepted as viable fighting systems. We aren't at that stage yet in the minds of the public for the very reason that we are so "open source", so to speak. There is a point where going out of our way to avoid being "too Asian" ends up working against us, and I believe that the issue of class structure is one of them, because it is not at all an exclusively Eastern concept.

What about those who join based on other interests?


Why else would someone join our organization–which is distinct from all other WMA groups because of its focus on training with intent–instead of a more bookish group that doesn't value the athletic aspects of the art, or an anachronistic group that has no concept of technique or historical accuracy whatsoever?

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Re: Thought's on WMA training

Postby David Craig » Wed Dec 22, 2004 5:48 pm

"I know that, you know that, but John Q. Public doesn't know that. That's the whole point."

That's true. But I believe that is also the case for some EMA. If you are training with weapons that have no easily discernible modern use, then most people won't necessarily associate your discipline with martial arts. To the general public, martial arts usually involve either self-defense training or combat sport competition. If neither is the prime focus, it is unlikely that the activity will be viewed as a martial art, at least to those who merely give it a passing glance.

What I was trying to say is that most of the people I know in ARMA (myself included) had prior interests in non-traditional martial arts, swords, sport fencing, LARP, SCA, military history, etc. In other words, they were already predisposed to accept that what ARMA does is legit. That's generally not the case with EMA; EMA schools attract a wide range of people from all walks of life simply by virtue of being EMA schools. They don't have to prove anything to anyone to be accepted as viable fighting systems. We aren't at that stage yet in the minds of the public for the very reason that we are so "open source", so to speak. There is a point where going out of our way to avoid being "too Asian" ends up working against us, and I believe that the issue of class structure is one of them, because it is not at all an exclusively Eastern concept.


I understand what you are arguing. But let's say ARMA adopted some of your suggestions and became more readily identifiable as a martial arts organization to the general public. Why would that attract any more people? Wouldn't prospective members still have to have the same predispositions that you pointed out? If someone isn't interested in medieval &amp; renaissance history, or doesn't have an interest in swordfighting, why would they join? For example, most people interested in martial arts don't take up iaido or kenjutsu.

Why else would someone join our organization&amp;#8211;which is distinct from all other WMA groups because of its focus on training with intent&amp;#8211;instead of a more bookish group that doesn't value the athletic aspects of the art, or an anachronistic group that has no concept of technique or historical accuracy whatsoever?


I would be willing to bet that some join ARMA precisely because it is a large organization that does not have a rigid structure, and which accomodates people with varying interests and degrees of commitment. I think your suggestions are reasonable and make perfect sense if ARMA were a type of training academy, where certified instructors each held classes at individual facilities. But I'm not sure how they could be applied to the entire organization as it now exists, given the different types of study groups.

David Craig

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Re: Thought's on WMA training

Postby David_Knight » Wed Dec 22, 2004 9:32 pm

Hmm. We're basically back to the beginning of our debate. <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

I think we can agree then that a more uniform structure should be a mid to long-term goal, and in the meantime some efforts to streamline study group sessions and boost public outreach would not be a bad thing. Many groups are already doing this. It's just frustrating that we have such an uphill battle to fight.


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