Speed and Force

[Jako Valis]

Post deleted by Gene Tausk

[Aaron Pynenberg]

3rd party supervisor- good idea we use this during Police training as well. I have thought of it during sparring too, it is difficult to use though as the idea is to have the supervisor right next to the two combatants and is "hands on" literally. This is to help prevent any dangerous techniques. obviously they get tangled up in the mix sometimes. I have not figured out how to incorporate this into our sparring sessions yet- other than just watching and blowing the session dead with a whistle or something, but again we are trying to use dangerous techniques to win the encounter, so you would need a pretty expirenced sup. for that role. any other ideas? -Aaron

[Jako Valis]

Hi Aaron!

Yes, the supervisor would need to be experienced, then he could easily stay out of harms way and also be better able to comment the fight, spot out hits etc.

Of course the combatants should also try to be aware of the supervisor, just as they should be aware of a possible third attacker.

- Jako

[Jako Valis]

Mike,

Combat is not an orderly gentlemanly affair, combat is chaos.
Sparring is embracing that chaos to learn from it.

Duels were fought between the nobility, between gentlemen. They tried to look good while fighting and remain graceful. Even if you lost and died, you could've done it with style.

These Arts are not backyard brawling with sticks. That should be quite evident. And it is very evident if you read Fiore: (translation by Rob Lovett of the Exiles)

And in the courts of great gentlemen, Princes, Dukes, Marquises and Counts, Knights and Squires he learned much of this Art.

That the said Fiore was more and more times required by many Gentleman and Knights and Squires for learning from the said Fiore made art of all arms and armour and fighting in the barriers to the death which art he has demonstrated to more Italian and German and other great Gentleman who had to fight in the barriers.

There you go. And remember, that combat is not the only difficult thing there exists - It need not be chaos in your mind. If you're good, you can make sense out of it - and remain a gentleman.

Yours,
Jako

[Matthew_Anderson]

Jako, It looks like your getting pretty hot under the collar and I apologize for the perceived insult, it wasn't meant as one. I could just have easily taken offense to this:

"For less trained swordsmen, for beginners and for study groups without experienced teacher, padded wasters increase safety if you absolutely need to spar, because nobody expects you to know how to control the weapon properly to start with. I'd concentrate in building that control instead of sparring".

But I didn't because I assume you are just trying to make a point, not an insult. I'm sure if we could train together in person, we would learn a lot from each other and probably not be as far apart on this issue as the posts here make it seem. May I ask who you train with? Are you a member of any group or organization? Do you have any pictures or videos of your training? I'd really be interested in seeing your free play. Look us up sometime if you are ever in the States, we can train a while and then I'll buy you a beer!

[Jako Valis]

Stacy,

1. Full speed and power - Weapon is propelled at full speed through the entire arc of the cut, with muscles stiffened to add the mass and force of the body to the impact and support penetration.

Try not to stiffen your muscles, your cuts will become faster. The sword is already hard, and the support is given by your skeleton with two hands on the hilt - no need to tense up.

2. Full speed, reduced power - Weapon is propelled at full speed through the entire arc of the cut, firm grip is maintained for control, but arm muscles remain loose and supple to allow recoil from impact rather than penetration, and the mass of the weapon accounts for the bulk of the momentum transferred. With practice, the power may be reduced from full only in the last ~10% of the arc to improve realistic performance.

Mechanics stay the same - you just control leverage with your hands and do not penetrate by pulling the sword on the target rather than through. But there is really no recoil, as recoil is a result of bad support, unless you're intentionally making it. Here, you discuss cutting through.

3. Reduced speed and power - As with #2 above, but slowed down either throughout the arc or in the last part of it for those who do not yet trust their control at higher speeds.

Yes, you can play with speed. Advanced swordsmen can accelerate their cuts to time their footwork correctly, and you can also slow down - just as you can change line, target, distance whatever.

And I agree, playing in "thinking time" is very good practice!


Yours,
Jako

[Mike Cartier]

It need not be chaos in your mind. If you're good, you can make sense out of it - and remain a gentleman

I would rather fight like a peasant any day, its only the SCA that imagines our medieval and renaissance past filled only with effete gentry .
The reality was much more practical and brutal and decidely less romantic. In the 16th century in germany these duels were fought between people of all classes and often done to the first red bloom, that is the first blood. No easy feat when using a fully rebated sword, a good smack to the head is what was required to get the blood to flow. The gentlemanly part being adhering to the rule of no thrusting.

[Jako Valis]

Mike,

I would rather fight like a peasant any day, its only the SCA that imagines our medieval and renaissance past filled only with effete gentry .
The reality was much more practical and brutal and decidely less romantic. In the 16th century in germany these duels were fought between people of all classes and often done to the first red bloom, that is the first blood. No easy feat when using a fully rebated sword, a good smack to the head is what was required to get the blood to flow. The gentlemanly part being adhering to the rule of no thrusting.

You'd rather fight like a peasant than a gentleman? Well, go ahead, then. I don't know of 16th century Germany, but Italians seemed to care about their image quite a lot. And sorry, but I'll take Fiore's words over yours any day.

Yours,
Jako

[Shane Smith]

Keep it Scholarly gentlemen.

[Shane Smith]

I am inclined to agree with Tim here.There is no safe way to train in freeplay with blunts at absolute full speed with intent barring heavy armours which defeat the purpose of the excercise in many important ways. High speed with good control?Yes. Full speed and no-one is injured even though one intends control? Not likely.

[Ben Kamphaus]

Jako: I'm very interested in what you have to say, as I'm certainly open to the idea that exchanging light armor (padding really) for sparring with blunts or aluminum wasters or something along those lines may be a better trade off than ARMA's current padded sparring methods [I'm cautious in going either way, here, as I've not had the best of opportunities for either method] but your replies are often quite haughty, and it's become quite apparent to me that you're arguing to prove that padded weapons are worthless, rather than attempting to have a discussion with the forum members here about to determine the particular merits (or absence thereof, if it comes to that) of both systems.

The not surprising result is that rather than having an open discussion with you in regards to different freeplay options, the ARMA members here are now stuck defending your attack on one of their training methods. I tend to believe that healthy debates and discussions at their best are a good process for determining the accuracy of things, not a contest to see who can prove that they're right.

[Mike Cartier]

You'd rather fight like a peasant than a gentleman? Well, go ahead, then. I don't know of 16th century Germany, but Italians seemed to care about their image quite a lot.

I am calling the ACLU this is a clear case of Peasant discrimination <img src="/forum/images/icons/laugh.gif" alt="" />
I think this talk of gentlemanly fighting has gotten a bit silly.

Concerning the concept of striking hard and fast
Here is a quick qoute for you from Meyer's Longsword portion of his fechtbuch, concerning the Wrath Cut (Zornhau)

The Wrathful Strike is a serious strike from your Right Shoulder, against your opponent's left ear, or through his face or chest, consider how it's done through two lines, with the lines drawn through the upper right and crosswise overtop one another. This is the strongest beyond all others in that all one's strength and manliness is laid against one's opponent in fighting and fencing, therefore the ancients also named it Straight Strike or Father Strike. Along the considered lines you can move onwards, etc.

hard to see how to do this without some power don't you think?

[Jako Valis]

Hi Mike,

You can hold your opinions on peasant-gentleman. I don't mind. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" /> I'll try to be gracefuul in my actions, though. It's a martial art after all, as masters also called it.

Thank you for the quote from Meyer. Please call me ignorant, if this is common knowledge, but could you elaborate what it is believed for him to mean by two lines?

Anyhow, Fiore was doing the same thing years before Meyer. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" /> I'm not arguing here. Where do you get the idea I'm telling you to fence without power? I'm sorry if I came too rough on the padded-weapon subject, as I tried to refrain from it myself. It's not the subject of this discussion. Let's forget for a while what we're fighting with, be it sticks, crowbars, swords or old femurs.

I'm not saying you should cut with no power when you fence, I've been advocating proper follow-through, proper posture and all that. Stop saying something else.

I'm only saying that you can fence full-speed with blunt steel, if you have trained up to it, and control the blows so that ehen you actually hit your opponent, you can control the blow.

Why I can't refrain from the padded-issue is, because with paddeds this sort of control is not such an issue. But with paddeds you compromise a lot of features you only get with steel - that's why I'm talking about an issue that prevents many of us from using steel, but I believe with training you can go around that issue.

Yours,
Jako

[Mike Cartier]

Hi Jako

i beleive meyer is referring to the diagonal lines from right to left and left to right, a gian X as it were.
If you follow this line with two cuts in the same technique its called a Kreutzhau (crosscut).

And yes we do advocate using steel blunts and wooden waisters and paddeds and steel sharps for test cutting. You are the only one advocating not doing something.

i apreciate your comments none the less, if you have any videos of what you are talking about perhaps that will illuminate what you are saying.

here is a video of me and David Knight doing our peasant staff fighting thing , upholding the dubious honor of the dirty grubby peasant.
Peasant Fighting Unleashed

[Jako Valis]

Sean,

Yes, I live in an environment where a long list of street-fighting encounters whatever is concidered stupidity. It may make you a good fighter if you brawl all the time in a dangerous part of town.

I'm lucky of not having that experience, yes. And I respect the knowledge you may have gathered from actual dangerous situations. They don't teach you longsword theory, though.

If I was interested in self-defense, why would I train longsword? And if, to you, Fiore is "woefully incomplete material transliterated and translated and reinterpreted", then it's just sad. I'm sure there are people in this forum who can shed some light to his teachings, if you're interested.

If people of the time were interested in only staying alive, would they fight for their honour? Today people won't do that, but the culture was different back then. And an important factor in these arts was the need to sometimes only humiliate your opponent, and not kill.

Given all that, I agree, that the art and the use are different things. In the training, you aim for perfection. It is a science. When it comes to doing it for real, some deterioration is likely to happen, but we can't say that the techniques didn't work the way they were drawn and described, ehich, at least in case of Fiore, is a noble and stylish way of doing things. (Back straight, head up, put the other in ground and stay up yourself, disarm him etc.)

We need not warrior about this, I know what you mean and I am not speaking of modern day self defense. Let's not mix that into this. What I'm practicing is the art, as laid out by Fiore, with all his theory on timing, geometry, leverage, footwork etc. The use is a manifestation of the art we practice.

And how a gentleman fights is different from how a gentleman practices with fellow gentlemen. In a fight it shows by arrogance, and upright posture - both good things when doing it for real. In practice it shows as courtesy.

If, in your life you have had to be in a longsword duel with sharps, please do share your experiences! <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />


Yours,
Jako