How zwerchhau?

[Jay Vail]

I'm having trouble understanding why the zwerchhau from the right is only depicted using the short edge. Playing with it, it seems you can do it just as well with the long edge and get the same results and head protection against an oberhau. The short edge seems slower and awkward. Comments?

[JeffGentry]

Hey Jay

I am not a linguist, i think as i have seen the word zwerch translated it is refering to a middle or horizontal strike i don't realy think it is a matter of which edge is used, it is dependant on how it is done i have not done a statisical comparison to see how many time's it is depicted as short edge on the right as opposed to long edge on the right, i personaly do long and short edge zwerch's on the right depending on what follow on strike i might wish to use do my mood and my opponent, this coould be the case in the depiction's you are refering to, this is all supposition on my part, the short edge stuff seem's fairly easy to me.

The short edge seems slower and awkward

your physical makeup as far as height, weight, hand size, flexibility could even be the cause of the awkward/slow feeling of a short edge zwerch.


IMHO Jeff

[Joachim Nilsson]

The short edge seems slower and awkward.

IMHO I think it's a matter of training, training, training.

We have tested it quite a lot and managed to accuire both speed and force with short edge, right-to-left zwerchhauen. In my opinion it also depends on what kind of pommel your sword has (if it's a disc or a scent stopper for instance), but that's also something that's related to the amount of training done.

I personally prefer to do a short edge zwerch from the right and then, if necessary, follow up with a long edge zwerch in the opposite direction.

[Doug Marnick]

Just some comments from a first year scholar. When I first started to learn this maneuver, I found it to be weak and awkward as well. After studying Meyer (Lindholm), I found out what I was doing wrong. I don't know if this applies to you or anyone else, but hopefully it helps. Note: I am a right handed swordsman.
WRONG: From Vom Tag, I used to strike the zwerchhau by turning the short edge to my inside (left)! Then I would swing the blade around in an arc to cut horizontally with the short edge against my opponent's left upper targets. When doing so, the moment of the cut would place me in the following position: Right foot forward, right arm fully extended along the line of the sword on top of the hilt, crossguard in front of my face, the flat of the blade and my right forearm perfectly parallel to the ground.
RIGHT: From Vom Tag, I now turn the short edge to my outside (right)! and continue turning as I step and swing the blade around in an arc to cut horizontally with the short edge against my opponent's left upper targets. When doing so, the moment of the cut would place me in the following position: Right foot forward, (off line of center), arms are up, crossguard over my head, right arm at a 90 degree angle. Now the blade angles down a bit, so as stated in the above post, I can still threaten with the point. Thumbing the ricasso helps me stabilize the blade.
Doing it with the LONG edge from my right to my opponent's left is, IMHO, just a high mittelhau. I find it awkward for my right wrist to keep the point down toward the opponent's torso.
Regardless, I now understand the idea of striking a zwerchhau quickly from both sides and how it is done with speed and power. Again, Jay, I don't know if this explanation applies to your difficulty, and I apologize if it appears condescending. At the least, I hope this post was informative for other inexperienced fencers such as myself.

[Mike Cartier]

Meyer teaches the main Zwerchau with the short edge, from right to left and also describes a long edge right to left version. he also advocates using the long edge when strike from left to right.

the short edge strike is more easily facilitated with a fluid grip and the thumb on the blade. i think the short edge version has a slightly greater range and more power.

[Lance Chan]

I think I really need someone to shoot me a video of how Zwerchhau work in sparring. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" /> Is there anybody who can help?

[philippewillaume]

Hello
Here my take on it.
If we look in meyer (the only one that speaks of short and long edge), we can come to the conclusion that it is a matter of hand position compared to the blade. Ie how you grip the sword.
So you can either rotate you wrist and the sword or rotate either the sword in your hand or the hand around the sword.

I do not think it does no matter that much.
What I think matters more is the global position of your arms compared to your body and the blow of you opponent.

I would say do it with the short edge by moving the wrist and the sword together. It is a tad slower but for it to work you have to be at the right location in the right position.
Once you have understood the structure of the blow and identify the very strong body position.
You can just let your grip rotate so that the thumb goes under the blade ( de facto transforming the long edge into the short edge)

[Doug Marnick]

Lance,
Although it goes by very quickly, go to the Video section and look at "Summer 2004. Instructing novice students in longsword". The person on the left, whom I assume is JC, does what appears to be a zwerchhau the second time he counters. If you freeze it at the beginning of the move, you will see the short edge turning "out" to his right, as I described above.
Jeanry, do you have anything in your collection of sparring videos that shows a zwerchhau?

[Lance Chan]

My problem with Zwerchau is that it doesn't protect me well from my opponent's zornhau during sparring. I did it like the illustration on page 70 of Knightly Art of the Longsword. From the picture you can see the area below his hand, from the forearm to elbow to the toe are all exposed. If you ask me, I would strike at his forearm. And in fact, during my experiement of this technique in sparring, I got hit on the forearms too. <img src="/forum/images/icons/frown.gif" alt="" /> I dunno how it is going to protect you from the upper strikes, except the vertical one. <img src="/forum/images/icons/frown.gif" alt="" />

[Randall Pleasant]

Lance

The Zwerchau works best against a more verticle Oberhau or a high angle Zornhau. As you learned, a Zwerchau does not work as well against a more horizontal cut. Thus, counter a low angle Zornhau with your own Zornhau or some other technique.

The following image from Goliath is one of the best images of a Zwerchau. Just note that the artist drew the blade of the man on the right, who is throwing the Zwerchau, with the flat facing out rather than edge. To be correct the top guard would need to be rotated down to the man's left side. What is important to notice is that the Zwerchau is hitting into the flat of the adversary's blade (displacing it) and hitting the adversary in the head and the adversary's blade is being caught on the guard of the man on the right (in case the adverary's blade was not displaced).

[Mike Cartier]

2 things make this technique safe against double kills.
1. speed
2. displacement

speed is essential in this technique in my opinion, it is the longsword version of a stop-hit, you should have struck your opponent before his fully developed strike.

displacment, the strong of your blade should be shielding you from the strike by the opponent, but leave the timing of it too late and he will develop his strike enough to get you. Step out in a traverse as you strike also, this provides you with some space to have a error or 2 in your timing or judgment.

When i prepare to do this strike i think STRAIGHT IN AT HIS FACE with the short edge. Meyer says

and when your opponent strikes you from the roof or above, strike closely with your short edge, breaking against his strike from below, holding your hilt high above to displace near your head, and strike to close by stepping full onto his Left side, thus displacing

And references the right hand fighter in the upper left hand corner.


Hope that helps.

[Randall Pleasant]

Mike Cartier wrote:
2 things make this technique safe against double kills.
1. speed
2. displacement

Mike

I fully agree. However, I would also include "keeping the hilt of your sword above your head". I think you were including this when you said "displacement" but I just wanted to clearly include it.

[Mike Cartier]

Yes just as Meyer describes it too, hilt high to displace.

[Lance Chan]

I got it now... I have no problem seeing how it work with vertical oberhau... Just had problem getting it to work against someone targeting my forearm/ribs with a diagonal downward cut. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" /> Thanks for your help!