Recent WMA history

For Historical European Fighting Arts, Weaponry, & Armor

Moderators: Webmaster, Stacy Clifford

User avatar
Scott A. Richardson
Posts: 64
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:19 am
Location: Danville, PA

Recent WMA history

Postby Scott A. Richardson » Sat Aug 25, 2007 12:31 pm

I have a question. While I am very well aquainted with WMA within its own historical context, I know nothing about its recent revival. One of my fencers asked me the other night how it started to be studied again, and I had to admit complete ignorance on that subject. So my question is when, where, and by whom did it begin to rediscovered?

Thank you.
Scott A. Richardson
Company of the Iron Gate
"Strike like Lightning, Fight like Thunder"

User avatar
Axel Pettersson
Posts: 145
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2005 8:02 pm
Location: Göteborg(Falun), Sweden
Contact:

Postby Axel Pettersson » Sat Aug 25, 2007 1:38 pm

Matt Galas posted this in reply to the same question on swordforum some time ago, (many people here knows even more Im sure), i thouhgt it was an interesting read:


"Western swordsmen have been examining and reconstructing HEMA for far longer than most of us realize. In Germany, Heinrich von Gunterrodt authored a manuscript in 1579 that mentioned what we now know as I.33, and attempted to apply its terminology and principles to the weapons of his time. (It was his friend, Johannes Herwart, who "rescued" I.33 from a Franconian monastery.) This is the first instance we can document where someone looked at an old manual and tried to make sense of it.

Somewhat later, a German scholarly publication (mid-1700s) published a list of old fencing manuals under the title, Bibliotheca Dimicatoria (Library of Fencing). A few other works from roughly the same time period (such as Schlichtegroll) examined old fencing manuals such as Talhoffer's work from 1467.

However, the real groundbreaking work occurred in the late 19th century. All across Europe, there was an explosion of interest in old fighting arts. In Germany, Karl Wassmannsdorf did excellent research on the German school that is still valuable today. Gustav Hergsell reprinted three of Hans Talhoffer's manuals. Some groups, such as one in Vienna, attempted to reconstruct the German arts. In England, Egerton Castle and Alfred Hutton wrote pioneering books on the history of swordsmanship, and Cyril Matthey republished Silver's Paradoxes of Defense and Brief Instructions. All three of them took an interest in the practical side of this as well, giving public demonstrations of reconstructed techniques. Italy had Jacopo Gelli, Francesco Novati, who published a facsimile of the Flos Duellatorum, and Giuseppe Cerri, whose book on the Bastone drew inspiration from Marozzo. Spain had Baron Leguina, whose bibliography of Spanish swordsmanship is still a standard reference today. This is just a small sampling of the luminaries of the time.

These men all tended to suffer from a Victorian bias, which saw modern foil fencing as the height of perfection, having evolved from its more brutish predecessors. Despite this flaw, their work laid the foundations for everything we do today. _They_ are the first generation. Unfortunately, their work was cut short by the two World Wars. The immense bloodshed of that time had an understandable dampening effect on research into European martial traditions, especially among academics. Interest was largely dormant during the post-war period.

In the 1970s, three important things happened:

First: The spread of Asian martial arts to the West, largely as a result of martial arts movies and TV shows, changed the cultural mindset in the West. This paved the way for the current Renaissance we are experiencing today. The Victorian era looked at the works of medieval masters like Hans Talhoffer and Fiore dei Liberi and saw only "rough, untutored fighting". Thanks to Bruce Lee and David Carradine, the modern world was able to look at these manuals and recognize them as martial arts.

Second: The spread of medievalist groups (the SCA in the US, re-enactor groups in Europe) spurred an interest in researching and recreating medieval fighting methods. These groups created a social context where these arts actually had some kind of relevance, as well as providing a kind of support-group for those pursuing this kind of research. There was a competitive side to this as well, as SCA and re-enactor combat were compared -- not always favorably -- to the flourishing Asian martial arts scene that was taking off at the same time.

Third: A number of primary sources were reprinted around the same time. In 1972, James Jackson published a book called "Three Elizabethan Manuals of Fence." This work reprinted the works of George Silver, Giacomo di Grassi, and Vincentio Saviolo. Having these three works published in one volume was of phenomenal importance. The first two, in particular, are theoretical works of the first order. Read together with Egerton Castle's Schools and Masters of Fence (available in university libraries), these works opened new vistas for those willing to look. In 1975, Martin Wierschin published a transcription of Sigmund Ringeck's Fechtbuch, along with a glossary of terms and a bibliography of German fencing manuals. In turn, this led to the publication of Hans-Peter Hils' seminal work on Liechtenauer in 1985. The importance of these two works cannot be overstated for the reconstruction of the German fighting arts.

(A possible fourth factor, which I'll only mention, is the possible influence of Dungeons & Dragons on the cultural mindset of the time.)

The factors above created an environment that encouraged research into the European fighting arts. Across the United States and Europe, small numbers of isolated researchers independently began researching HEMA in earnest. In 1981-82, I began research on the German school and on the English Backsword tradition, based on the works listed above. Steve Hick and Patri Pugliese began work at around the same time, using most of the same sources. All told, there were probably 10-15 people (seriously) working on this in isolation. Our work went mostly unappreciated: Medieval combat techniques didn't fit in well with SCA fighting rules; kendo senseis and sport fencing instructors were equally unreceptive. This state of affairs continued throughout the 1980s and into the 1990s.

1994 was a watershed year.

First, Christoph Amberger began publishing Hammerterz Forum, a home-grown publication devoted entirely to the history of swordsmanship. For the first time, there was a place to publish articles for an audience that truly cared. Hammerterz Forum laid the foundations for a community of interest, and was the means by which a lot of us first came to know of one another's existence.

Second, the Internet suddenly took off. Paradoxically, the most modern technology served as the means for bringing new life to long dead arts. In a very short period of time, an online community began to form. Somehow, the formerly isolated researchers managed to find each other. That was the year I met Steve Hick, and through him, a whole host of other people. E-mail lists began to pop up on the web.

Shortly after this (1995?) the HACA (now ARMA) put up its website. John Clements' efforts in this regard probably did more than anything else to generate interest online at this time. The HACA website constantly pumped information out to a hungry public, fueling rapid growth in public awareness of WMA and HEMA. From there, it was only a matter of time until translations of primary source material (fencing manuals) began appearing online, and eventually in print. Finally, the appearance of various forums (this one included) have obviously played a key role in creating a sense of community.

In all this, the single factor of paramount importance has been the Internet. Without it, our movement would have withered and died a slow death. The Internet transformed a handful of lonely researchers toiling in isolation into a flourishing and vibrant community that is growing daily by leaps and bounds.

The current generation of swordsmen may well be the best-read in history, with easy access to sources as diverse as I.33, Girard Thibaut, Dom Duarte, Salvator Fabris, Sigmund Ringeck, and George Silver. Not only are they well-read, but they have the ability to discuss and debate matters in detail with a host of like-minded colleagues from around the globe.

In terms of theory, our community has made huge progress. As far as practical application and physical skill at swordsmanship, we obviously have a long way to go. However, if we continue on the current trajectory, the next generation of swordsman will be something that we can all be truly proud of."

User avatar
Greg Coffman
Posts: 156
Joined: Sat Dec 09, 2006 5:33 pm
Location: Abilene

Postby Greg Coffman » Sat Aug 25, 2007 3:38 pm

After the International Gathering, I'm pretty proud of the current generation of swordsmen and swordswomen.

User avatar
Jeffrey Hull
Posts: 678
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2002 3:40 pm
Location: USA

Milestones

Postby Jeffrey Hull » Sun Aug 26, 2007 2:42 pm

How about adding mention of these authors & their works as important early milestones which do and likely shall have lasting effect in advancement of WMA :arrow:

Meister Johann Liechtenauers Kunst des langen Schwertes
Hans-Peter Hils (auth); Peter Lang; 1985

Medieval Swordsmanship
John Clements (auth); Paladin Press; 1998

The Martial Arts of Renaissance Europe
Sydney Anglo (auth); Yale University Press; 2000

Medieval Combat
Mark Rector (transl & interp); Greenhill Books; 2000

Records of the Medieval Sword
Ewart Oakeshott (auth & illus); Boydell Press; 2002 (revised edit)

Codex Wallerstein
Grzegorz Zabinski (transcr & transl); Bartlomiej Walczak (transl & interp); Paladin Press; 2002

Sigmund Ringeck’s Knightly Art of the Longsword
David Lindholm (transl & interp) & Peter Svärd (illus); Paladin Press; 2003

Meister Johannes Liechtenauers Kunst des Fechtens
Didier de Grenier (auth); Arts d’Armes website; 2003

The Medieval Art of Swordsmanship: A Facsimile & Translation of Europe’s Oldest Personal Combat Treatise, Royal Armouries MS I.33
Jeffrey Forgeng (edit); Chivalry Bookshelf; 2003

Those nine works, as far as I am concerned, are the most crucial, the best of the early modern-revival works to read for this field. And yes, I have read them all (including the Hils), and even own some of them. :wink:
JLH

*Wehrlos ist ehrlos*

User avatar
Matthew_Anderson
Posts: 335
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2003 5:57 pm
Location: Virginia Beach, VA

Postby Matthew_Anderson » Mon Aug 27, 2007 6:21 am

Here's an interesting article about a fencing "revival" of sorts in the 19th century. Although they weren't really working from period sources in some cases, and probably missed a lot of key elements in their reconstructions, there does seem to have been a sincere interest in the "old swordplay" amongst a few practitioners.

http://www.thearma.org/essays/BritLegacy.htm

AFAIK, the latest resurrection of historical Fencing really got going in the late 80's and early 90's of the 20th century, when a few of the old manuscripts began to become known and available to enthusiasts. With the widespread sharing of documents and information made possible by the internet, a few interested parties began to try to reconstruct the types of fighting they saw in the old sources, rather than simply making up techniques and systems that fit in with role-playing or theatrical performance interests or were adapted from modern fencing. Certainly, our own John Clements was on the early frontier of this movement, and his no-nonsense approach eventually spawned the ARMA.
Matt Anderson
SFS
ARMA Virginia Beach

User avatar
Jaron Bernstein
Posts: 1108
Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2003 12:58 am

Postby Jaron Bernstein » Mon Aug 27, 2007 11:47 am

I liken this revival to a sports analogy. Today soccer (or football to the rest of the world) is very popular. Watched by millions, played by tens of thousands and with a very small number of elite players at the apex of this pyramid. Lets say that over the next generation the game dies out completely. 500 years from now someone digs up the written rules, playbooks and maybe some old game video. And they start to play again. It would take some time before the game reaches either the quality or quantity it enjoys now in a World Cup game. This is compounded by the fact that we can't fully recreate the world of WMA in the bad old days due to legal, technological, cultural and ethical reasons.

A more realistic goal would be to bring these arts up to the level of modern Muay Thai, Judo, western boxing or MMA. For this, tangible goals can be set. The day a kampfringen fighter can respectably hold their own in an MMA match would be a good sign. The day an ARMAteer, using WMA material, with a rondel simulator can compete well against a top Kali/Escrima knife fighter is another indicator. I think we can say with some pride that some senior ARMAteers can indeed take on sword fighters of other sword arts and do quite well.

User avatar
John_Clements
Posts: 1167
Joined: Wed Sep 18, 2002 10:43 pm
Location: Atlanta area

Postby John_Clements » Mon Aug 27, 2007 1:30 pm

The only thing I would add is that there were many stage combat books from the 70s - 90s that in their own way spread some interest. Also that Hank Reinhardt through his Museum Replicas' Limited catalogs and promotion of Ewart Oakeshot's works on swords did a great deal to spread awareness that there was far more to this subject than just Sca, D&D, and theatrical stunt shows. Lastly, I published some articles on the topic of historical fencing in various magazines back in the mid 1990s, then my Renaissance book in 1997 was the first of its kind in over a hundred years to address the topic as a martial art again. Our international symposium in Houston in 2001 was also the first ever of its kind devoted exclusively to serious study of Medieval & Renaissance fighting arts.

Oh, I must also mention that John Waller at the Royal Armouries and Mike Loades in the UK, while never crossing over exclusively to the martial arts study of the craft as pure combative, were certainly among of the first to try to bring some historical sources and reality of the function of actual historical arms & armor to the matter of arranged combat performance. The influence of these two on historical fencing should not be denied.

JC
Last edited by John_Clements on Wed Aug 29, 2007 6:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Do NOT send me private messages via Forum messenger. I NEVER read them. To contact me please use direct email instead.

AlexCSmith
Posts: 37
Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2007 1:43 pm
Location: Mountains of North GA

Postby AlexCSmith » Mon Aug 27, 2007 2:23 pm

/agree

It was definitely Hank Reinhardt that opened my eyes to the fact that medieval fencing wasn't two guys wailing away at each other's shield until one of them ran out of hit points.
"A good plan executed violently today is better than a perfect plan next week." George S. Patton Jr.

User avatar
Grant Hall
Posts: 144
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2005 7:11 am
Location: Australia, Victoria

Postby Grant Hall » Sat Jun 28, 2008 5:57 am

Sorry for resurecting this thread but I was very interested on any information pertaining to the following works:

Axel Pettersson wrote:Somewhat later, a German scholarly publication (mid-1700s) published a list of old fencing manuals under the title, Bibliotheca Dimicatoria (Library of Fencing). A few other works from roughly the same time period (such as Schlichtegroll) examined old fencing manuals such as Talhoffer's work from 1467.


I'm hoping to track down these tomes, however my search keeps pointing to the latter 19th century, especaialy Carl A Thimm for unknown reasons.

Any and all assisstance would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers!
<<<<<<<<<<]==0
Grant Hall - Scholar
--ARMA Australia--
0==[>>>>>>>>>>

“The Nation that makes a great distinction
between its scholars and its warriors
will have its thinking done by cowards
and its fighting done by fools"
– Thucydides 5th c. BC

steve hick
Posts: 104
Joined: Mon Sep 23, 2002 4:04 pm

Postby steve hick » Tue Jul 08, 2008 5:36 pm

Grant Hall wrote:Sorry for resurecting this thread but I was very interested on any information pertaining to the following works:

Axel Pettersson wrote:Somewhat later, a German scholarly publication (mid-1700s) published a list of old fencing manuals under the title, Bibliotheca Dimicatoria (Library of Fencing). A few other works from roughly the same time period (such as Schlichtegroll) examined old fencing manuals such as Talhoffer's work from 1467.


I'm hoping to track down these tomes, however my search keeps pointing to the latter 19th century, especaialy Carl A Thimm for unknown reasons.

Any and all assisstance would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers!


could this be

Henrici à Gunterrodt: De veris principiis artis dimicatoriæ. : Tractatus brevis...
by Heinrich von Günderode
Language: Latin Type: Book
Publisher: Witebergae, 1579.


Return to “Research and Training Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 21 guests

 
 

Note: ARMA - The Association for Renaissance Martial Arts and the ARMA logo are federally registered trademarks, copyright 2001. All rights reserved. No use of the ARMA name or emblem is permitted without authorization. Reproduction of material from this site without written permission of the authors is strictly prohibited. HACA and The Historical Armed Combat Association copyright 1999 by John Clements. All rights reserved. Contents of this site 1999 by ARMA.