History Channel - "Conquest"

[Aaron Pynenberg]

Yes, until that high person dies in your custody, from wrestling. Then you get sued and the media makes you look like the bad-guy. We have these tazers that shoot a thin wire with a fish hook on the end into you, and give you 50,000 volts did you guys see these things yet they are awesome.

We had an Officer attacked recently by a crook, the crook went straight for the eyes. It is a prison tech that the crookies are learning to disable cops. In most cases the Cops could have used deadly force, (they could shoot the crook) because the crooks actions could cause great bodily harm to the Officer, but some Officers are not expecting this kind of action nor are they trained for it. If the eye gouge works they additionally cannot aim their weapon properly. Eye gouges are nastliy effective- they stun your opponent and give you back the initiative. Even someone who is high, is now high and unable to see on top of it- Aaron

[Gene Tausk]

Aaron:

I am confused as to what point you are trying to make.

RU reccomending eye gouges as a "universal" answer to grappling holds or relating an incident?

Thanx


---------------->>>>>>>>>>>>gene

[Aaron Pynenberg]

Gene, My point?- Sorry man, I typed that after a long night, Just that eye gouges are very effective, and usually take your opponent by surprise-as to you other question no- I would never say always do this versus that, it depends on so many variables. JC's comments just rung a bell with me because we just had the incident occur to one of our Officer's- so as to your third question, yes, I was trying to relate a specific incident to you-just sharing with you that's all.

I guess lastly I was making a point that someone who is "high" still needs to see, the soft tissue areas of the body are really very vulnerable , eyes, mouth, groin, ears. These areas always need to be considered in a "real" fight.

I hope this clears it up for you- As always just my 2 cents- Later- Aaron

[Jaron Bernstein]

Aaron,

But I doubt if the criminal cares about 1942 US Code Section 38. I also don't think civil liability was uppermost on Fiori De Libiris mind when he taught. One thing about any technique (whether "sport" or "street") is the muscle memory of doing it. If you don't train something into becoming muscle memory (or as Jeff the younger says where you can "relax" in the fight and ACTUALLY USE what you know) then it won't be there when you need it. So, for an average WMA practicioner, it is all well and good for them to do the historically accurate "street" stuff as their default muscle memory training. Do YOU want to do that, and use it on an arrestee and then explain it to the scumbags lawyer about how you broke his client's neck? I would say that whatever way you choose to train the thing, it is important to consciously choose what muscle memory you are programming, because that is what you will use in a live situation.

[Aaron Pynenberg]

Jaron, maybe I am just no-good at this on-line communication bit- but I really am not following you either. I am sure criminals don't care about code. I also certainally do not use eye gouges on suspects, but my point was that I always remain aware that they might use them on me, if they do it is grounds for deadly force as I am sure you know, due to the fact that these types of injuries,(to the soft tissue) can be construed as great bodily harm, which is part of the deadly force criteria in the State of Wisconsin.

As far as training a technique to this or that, yes that all makes sense. I was simply trying to agree with JC that eye gouges, etc are very nasty and can turn the momentum of a CQB fight very quickly and in a shockingly effective manner.

-Aaron

[Jaron Bernstein]

Ah, the unwisdom of writing on little sleep (on my part at least <img src="/forum/images/icons/tongue.gif" alt="" /> )


" I also certainally do not use eye gouges on suspects, but my point was that I always remain aware that they might use them on me, if they do it is grounds for deadly force as I am sure you know, due to the fact that these types of injuries,(to the soft tissue) can be construed as great bodily harm, which is part of the deadly force criteria in the State of Wisconsin."

Makes sense. The problem that we run into (just had a very good groundfighting class for work) is that cops are not actually taught the lethal force stuff in any useful detail because that is NOT the desired muscle memory. Which is all well and good until some guy tries to take out your eyeballs. In which case the cop falls back on...the bullshit PPCT stuff that won't do much. Or...the cop trains in the more lethal stuff and then accidentally uses it in the wrong situation. Kind of a catch 22. I would say that for non-LE WMA practicioner that isn't really an issue. They can just train the full techniques since the only non-sparring fight they are likely to get into doesn't require "reasonable" force.

"As far as training a technique to this or that, yes that all makes sense. I was simply trying to agree with JC that eye gouges, etc are very nasty and can turn the momentum of a CQB fight very quickly and in a shockingly effective manner. "

I am with ye on that point. I just think that it is an issue to try to decide whether to train "sport", "street" or both and if you do train both, will you end up with neither as your muscle memory gets confused?

[Casper Bradak]

I highly recommend you guys read this article, it's very good.
Fighting or Playing? The Martial Art vs. Sport Debate, by Neil Ohlenkamp.
http://judoinfo.com/sport.htm

[Aaron Pynenberg]

Good stuff Casper Thanks! -Aaron

[Jaron Bernstein]

Casper, Aaron,

Good article! Says it way better than I can.

[James_Knowles]

it is important to consciously choose what muscle memory you are programming, because that is what you will use in a live situation.

Amen to that.

When I was newly married I nearly put my wife in the hospital due to programming. At the time I studied kung fu from a teacher who emphasised doing lots of damage as fast as possible to end the fight or otherwise allow one to run away.

My wife thought it'd be cute to sneak in one night after work and surprise me while I was in the bathroom doing something like brushing teeth.

The corner of my eye simply saw an arm shooting out of the dark, and I reacted per repeated instruction and practice.

Quick as a flash I "helped" the arm past me, stepped in and had the "friendly" warning sirens in my head kick in at the last miliseconds as my elbow was accelerating towards her throat. This was a basic motion that had been practiced over and over. Pure rehearsed "muscle memory."

Thankfully I was able to pull the shot and didn't do any real damage.

One of the worst moments of my life. <img src="/forum/images/icons/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/icons/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/icons/frown.gif" alt="" />

[Jaron Bernstein]

Well, that isn't a bad instinct to have if all you do is WMA. It is being true to the spirit of the art. I am just saying that for folks like Aaron and me, that our first trained instinct had better NOT be that or the lawsuit wouldn't be pretty. But you don't have to arrest people using "reasonable" force. You just need to avoid all fights accept the kind where that elbow to the throat is justified. But as Aaron says, you DO need to be aware that while yer first instinct shouldn't be deadly force as a cop, the bad guys might think a bit differently. Which leads to the problem of having to train 2 sets of muscle memory.