Hans von Speyer Short Sword???

[JohnDemick]

Probably a newbie question but who cares.

Ive been disapointed about the lack of short sword w/o buckler material that is out there. Then I recently stumbled on a piece of information the said Hans von Speyer's fightbook contained information on how to use the short sword. My question is is this actualy a short sword or are they talking about half-swording like the von danzig fightbook.

[JeanryChandler]

If you mean a sword shorter than a typical arming sword, you really aren't going to see much in the Fechtbuchs, other than maybe the (curved, single edged) dussack. And daggers of course which were quite long.

Short swords as such were rare in medieval and Renaissance Europe. They existed in Classical times, but were largely replaced by longer weapons toward the later Roman Imperial period. You still saw some in the middle east, like some variants of the arab Khindjal, and some revivals of classic types like the cinqueda in Italy, or for backup weapons for archers but for the most part even these were nearly the same length as arming swords.

If you try sparring with a short weapon, say under 30", against someone armed with one significnalty longer, you'll see why fighting with short swords wasn't done much.

DB

[JohnDemick]

Hans von Speyer mean when he mentioned Short Sword?

[Casper Bradak]

Probably referring to a normal, single hand sword. There is a wealth of available material. Master Fiore has a chapter on the single sword. Any messer/falchion technique is identicle with a sword, and many sword and buckler techniques work fine with the single sword.

[JohnDemick]

Thanks

[JeanryChandler]

You might want to try looking into Escrima / Arniss which deals with shorter weapons (sticks then short swords ultimately depending on the specific school)

Jeanry

[Jaron Bernstein]

Fiori has those short stick thingies...

[John_Clements]

Medieval swords came in all shapes and sizes. The Messer and longsword techniques work perfectly with short swords, and the techniques of arming swords with buckler or dagger equally so. (And they are substantially different form stick fighting arts)

Von Speyer's short sword I believe is actually half-swording, the "shortended sword", if I recall rightly.

JC

[Casper Bradak]

I haven't read the Von Speyer book, but according to AEMMA it contains "a compilation of lessons written down in 1491. This contains longsword, messer, short sword, wrestling..."
So it could've contained the shortened sword terms in the longsword section, but if they're right it also contains single sword material.

[Hans Heim]

Hi,

if you talk about this:

UNIVERSITÄTSBIBLIOTHEK SALZBURG

Handschrift M I 29 (Fechtbuch)



(137r-141r) Meister Martin Hundfeld: Fechtlehre mit dem kurzen Schwert

(137r) Hie heb sich an das kürtz swert in dem kanpff als es meinster Mertein Hündsfelder gesait hatt

Item nu (!) das swertt by der rechten hant by dem beyn und mit der lincken griff untten in die clingen und ge vast zu dem man, So müß er schlagen oder stechen, do kum vor und biß rechs pleyb sollichenn und griff nohenn.

This is from the transcription of Beatrix Koll: http://www.ubs.sbg.ac.at/sosa/webseite/fechtbuch.htm

and it is about half-swording.

"Item nu (!) das swertt by der rechten hant by dem beyn und mit der lincken griff untten in die clingen..."

"So the sword with the right right hand at the leg and grap with the left below in the blade..."

Hans

[JohnDemick]

So is Fiore the only reference to a single handed sword not used with a buckler? (the double bladed one, not the messer, rapier, etc) Because Fiore doesnt seem to have a great wealth of material, and from the diagrams it looks like hes just using a longsword with one hand. If someone has another reference of the single handed sword w/o buckler, that would be great.

[Rabbe J.O. Laine]

John,

Not by a long shot. There's George Silver ( http://www.sirwilliamhope.org/Library/Silver/ ) Viggiani and Manciolino ( http://www.tattershall.org/resc.html ), Meyer ( http://freifechter.org/cgi-bin/cowman/content/fechtbuecher/meyer/meyer - his "rapier" is still pretty much what we'd call a sidesword) and several others.

I believe Fiore has quite a bit of material, actually. It's just that the version that is online is relatively limited. Bob Charron is working on a translation of the (I think) more comprehensive Getty version of the manuscript.

[John_Clements]

Yes, use those sources. I think while there are diferences in the handling of wider single hand blades compared to the more agile tapering variety used against lighter armors, the essentials between them are the same. So any source from the era on single sword will be worth studying for insight on short swords. And since longer double hand blades came from earlier single ones, well, the inference there is obvious too.

JC

[JeanryChandler]

Mr Clements, by short swords do you mean arming type swords, or say something shorter than say 32"?

Jeanry

[Bart Walczak]

If you encounter a phrase "kurtzen/kurtzes swert" in period German manuals it *always* means half-swording, "shortened sword", not "short sword" as a type of blade. This is a mistake like calling "mezza spada" half-swording. Confusion of terms.