The Padded Weapon Dilemma;

[Shane Smith]

How many among us have been having a great day of bouting with our fellow Swordsmen and Swordswomen only to hear the dreaded "CRACK!" as another padded weapon of whatever design is sent to the scrap-pile? How many times have you felt frustrated and completely sick because either;

A; That was one of only two weapons on hand,or worse,

B; That was the one borrowed padded simulator on hand?

I think we've all been there and I'm getting sick of it. I have a closet full of broken cores and old padded weapon duck-cloth sleeves(That are NEVER re-usable no matter how alike the new weapon you make to replace the broken one is to the original!!??What law of physics is at work here beyond Murphy's?) That is most dis-heartening.

We got tired of making sleeves here in VAB, so Matt innovated the use of lengthwise strips of packing tape as covers.The weapons still broke,but at least there were no more cloth sacks of despair leering back at us from the corner of the humble training-tool armoury(A corner in the spare bedroom or garage normally) to remind us of our failures.

We then experimented with fiberglass strips,vinyl strips and darn near anything else you can wrap duct-tape around(1002 uses now!) The result was the same,some did well in modest fencing,but when the intensity went up, the weapons cracked on heads,hands and to add insult to the inferred mediocrity of our building skills,they even broke on themselves!


My most recent disapointment has been with PVC-cored weapons. Three kills in three landed blows...That's right, the weapons cores broke at the strong on impact in spite of the point of impact being near the tip(My fencing buddies and I remain uninjured <img src="/forum/images/icons/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" /> )

I'm trying to take it all in stride,but alas,it's getting to me.On the one hand,I can look at my broken pile with pride and say, I earned that through hard work...On the other, I look at the mis-shapen pile that represents expended sweat and a little blood letting(and that was just in the making of THEM!) and think, "Why?". Why can't someone get this problem whipped and save some of our newer guys from this living hellishness that is padded-weapon procurement?

There is a bright glimmer in my tale of woe however, Matt Anderson made two slat and aluminum weapons,apparently unknowingly from the most blessed of stock from a local warehouse-style lumber provider.These weapons are approaching their second birthday. I think the VAB group will be naming them soon.I think that "Heavy" and "Unwieldy" are fitting titles,but I must admit that I prefer that to "Broken" and "Kindling".

I'm thinking a good stiff strike to my hands with a waster will immediately exemplify why they're needed, but man,I wish the pain of broken weapons weren't needed...but then, I did earn that pile of splintered kindling...I'm proud of that at least <img src="/forum/images/icons/cool.gif" alt="" />

[Casper Bradak]

I've started experimenting with plastic cores for padded wasters.
They aren't quite as springy as the pvc cores, but they're more durable and far easier and faster to put together, and flexible. They're about the same weight I think. A little bit of practical application should adjust any padding/weight/balance issues quickly.

Core:
Plastic edge molding. It's plasic top cap for thin plastic criss cross lattice fencing. It comes in 8' lengths (I got mine at lowe's). It comes in several colors, which don't make a difference, except for price, white being cheapest, $2-3 each. They're roughly 3/4" x 1 1/8".
They are flexible and will not break. They are a rectangular U in cross section. They are malleable, extremely easy to cut and drill. Just cut it to the desired length, and round the tip and the edges.
I place a 1/4" steel rod inside, cut to balace. They fit very snugly. Pad them as you would any core.

[JeanryChandler]

I hate to sound like a broken record, but we use the Sch 80, and as I said, we had only one break out of about 12 weapons made in the last two years or so.

The core is very important. Sch 80 pvc is stiff when you are striking so you get no "whip" effect, but just flexible enough not to break. Also the strong orthopedic foam protects the flat. If you can feel the core through the flat it's likely to break.

I get Sch 80 at Lowes for about $3 for two 5' 3/4" lenghts, or $2.50 for a pre-cut 48" 1/2" length (for arming swords)

I promise you I hit as hard as anyone does in ARMA and harder than most people, ask Jake or Dave Housteau. Some of the other guys in our local group hit harder than I do. (what we lack in correct form and finesse we make up for in angry high energy frutstatoin venting!!) It is normal to limp away from our practice sessions, heavy gloves and helmt are absolutely mandatory.

We also use steel helmets, steel and aluminum bucklers and shields, and sometimes even fight with padded weapons against steel schlager blades. The only one break I had was a two handed weapon with a 1/2" core used against a heavy aluminium mazzo scuda shield.

Other than that, six of us go out nearly every saturday and beat on each other hard enough to crack helmets and break buckler handles without breaking our weapons.

The only other difference I can think of is that we fight on a grassy field and not over concrete or asphalt, so there is less likelyhood of breakage from hitting the ground.


A couple of guidelines I've learned from over the years:

Don't cut or pierce the PVC, that will make it brittle.

Use the Sch 80, not Sch 40 or lighter. 3/4" minimum for
longswords

Do not put things iniside the PVC. (this includes
counterweights, it's better to make a pommel)

Make sure the flat is covered well enough that you
cannot compress it completely to the core with your f
fingers.

Be careful with the guards so that they dont put too much stress on the core. For guards we are now using aluminum shelf brackets taped on to the core. They work very well.


Jeanry

[JeanryChandler]

I have heard of people using solid rectangular plastic cores and it sounds promising though I haven't tried it myself.

Jeanry

[Casper Bradak]

They have some pros and cons compared to the pvc, but they're very promising indeed. They're easier to make and I don't think you could break one, though time will tell.
On the con side, they will flex but aren't as springy as pvc. I think the material is softer. They only noticably flex if you intentionally bend them, but won't break from it, but if you really bend one, you may need to bend it back.
Though they are rectangular so they really only flex on the flat.

[Shane Smith]

Where do I send the check Jeanry? <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

[JeanryChandler]

I'm a little worn out at the moment after just making two orders (ask again me in about a month!), and I would also like to see how people like the ones I just made before making any more.

But I did post a readable if not elegant "how-to" on the forum.

You can make them yourself without too much trouble. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

Jeanry

[TimSheetz]

Hi Shane,

I have been nearby when weapons broke on first contact.. never one of my own, though.

Ironically, ones made with PVC only core (schedule 40) and padded like generation 1 weapons have lasted me many years - admittedly ,they may have not recieved as many miles of use as your paces due to a dearth of sparring targets - Oops! I mean sparring partners.

The slat models that were springy like a real weapon broke on a bad (too much flat sided play).

The hickory cored model I have has a leather cover and is made for more senior folks with control...

I have broken pvc and wooden dowel cored weapons as the wood invariably shatters and befcomes extra weight but provides no structural support...

I am looking to make some of the weapons with Jeanry's design specs. I have a new sparring partner who is dedicated enough to meet at 0530 twice a week.... he deserves to have a new sparring weapons I think!


Good Luck!

Tim

PS: How's Matt's hand?

[Lance Chan]

------
I have a new sparring partner who is dedicated enough to meet at 0530 twice a week.... he deserves to have a new sparring weapons I think!
------

Wow! Now only if I can find someone as dedicated as your target... oops, partner. <img src="/forum/images/icons/laugh.gif" alt="" /> I'm sure he gets your sparring desire engine shifted in high gear. Good for you!

[John_Clements]

Yeah...I've broken so many I've lost count. Lots of times I've broken brand new ones that I was trying out too. And not from especially hard blows either so much as torquing them around in a blow.

But, I have a PVC &amp; round 1" dowel core weapon from c. 1992 that I still use. Beats me why it has held up over all the newer designs.

Anyway, the newest deisgn we had in Houston from the DFW group seemed to be holding up very well. I don't recall them breaking? Anyone know?

[E. Perez]

Unfortunately a couple of weeks after Gene's prize playing we started our own pile of broken weapons like Shane's.

After thinking back on the incidents I want to say that they broke like Tim said when hitting more on the flat rather than on a good edge cut.

Anyway we still have one left that was made with a modification and after reading this thread I am considering various ways I can futher modify the design and still keep a flattened core.

I still have a short sword made with slats and aluminum that I used at the International Event. I started with two but broke one sparring Tim during the prize playing.

[JeanryChandler]

you have to protect the core, which is why that really dense orthopedic foam is so useful, even at 1/8" it will not compress enough to let the core be damaged. If you do not have something protecting the core on the flat as well as the edge, the padded weapon will break.

Think of it this way, almost anything you use for a core, if you are using anything for a core short of an actual waster, and you strike them together unprotected (i.e. unpadded) they are going to break. This will happen in about 2 seconds with pvc. The padding protects the core as much as it protects the user.

The stuff I get costs about $10 for a sheet sufficient to make three or four swords, plus $7 shipping. The company is called ACOR Orthopaedic. PM me if you want their 800 number.

Jeanry

[Stacy Clifford]

The short swords we have built on the wood/aluminum slat model seem to be nearly indestructable; it's the longswords that are always breaking. Most of those that I've seen break tend to do so about a third of the way from the end of the blade, though that depends on how you construct the core from the materials. I found the sandwich design to be fairly durable with a couple of small tweaks, but eventually one of the wood slats would snap on a hard flat hit. That's the only design I've had a chance to try building, and there's still room for improvement, but other designs I've gotten to spar with have produced better-balanced swords.

[Ray Brunk]

Some of you may remember me posting the same concerns last year. I've tried several designs and none lasted longer then 1 session. Probably broke 3 dozen before I got so frustrated that we have been sparring with wood....ouch
Last week I made one of Jeanry's wasters with the schedule 80 pvc core and used some expensive foam used for excercise mats. It made it through 1 hour of sparring and did not break. It handled well and the flex was about that of an MRL sword which felt better than the slats or hockey stick designs.I have also tried oak,pine,hickory,mahogoney &amp; Ipe(s american ironwood which is supposed to be hardest wood of all) and they all broke. I may fill the next one as it is a little light. Towards the end of the session I purposely started to really throw some power cuts. Still did not break and was soft enough not to brain my partner. I like the "stiff" guard design. I foamed it up real well and did no damage to my partner. I used the thickest L brackets I could find and they still bent but I just bent them back. I can see why you must put foam under them so the core doesn't puncture. So far I like. Will make a few more in coming weeks and really test them out.
Ray
ARMA Upstate NY

[Ray Brunk]

Wanted to let you guys know that my new padded sword made it through another session without damage. 2 workouts is a new record. Interestingly enough, we had one hockey stick version left which has also survived 2 weeks banging against the new PVC core. I do wish my new sword was a little flatter. I know....quit whining, besides I can still discern the edge.
Ray
ARMA Upstate NY