Starting off with the two-hander

[Neil Bockus]

As of recent, and with the college semester over, I've finally had time to begin a more serious study of the two hand sword. To be perfectly honest, i'm a bit of a mismatch to the sword (129.5 lbs at 5' 10" but am working on that issue, trying to increase my weight and muscle.) A little while ago I picked up the book Medieval Swordsmanship by John Clements, and noticed that at least in 1998, there hadn't been enough study put into the two hander to make accurate theories on how it was used, and being that i'd like to see how it really operates, I have been trying to find other sources.

One of the main issues I've come across is that in some of the fechtbucht (sp?) I cannot discern weather or not some of the swords shown are real two-handers or if they are hand and a half or along the lines of longer-handled longswords (it probably doesn't help that i don't have any knowledge in German or Italian, just Latin). Also, I have yet to find a company that makes at least a comprable two-hander to a historical one (though one of my friends has given me a name of a knife and swordsmith he's related to so this issue may get resolved in the near future.) As a result, for practice purposes (lengthwise) i've resorted to a waster that's built on the base of a 60" gardening shaft (ha ha, right? well it's the best i could come up with right now).

As a result the sword still has to wait, and my comprehension of the sword is less-than-basic to say the least. If anyone can point me in a how shall i say "finer" direction for the expansion of my study, I would be very much obliged.

-Neil

[Casper Bradak]

Study the longsword, as it is foundational for two-handed sword. That will give you the foundation and direction you need, and that is a major reason why there is less specific material on the two handed sword. A two hander is a specialized weapon (and therefore less sophisticated in use to a certain degree).
Proportion is not an issue. Just use a two hander proportional to you. The weight should not be an issue, even at your weight, so long as you're fit.

[Jonathan Harton]

To add what I can from my oen limited knowledge, The Hand and a Half is a weapon that became so renoudly popular for its versitility. It can be wielded in one or two hands with ease in the hands of a trained swordsman. It also served itself to self defense and the duel outside of a battlefield context. As has been stated, the great sword was a weapon purely ment for war and power.
The usefulness of the weapon came out the best when on the battlefield where numerous other weapons were placed in support, and being supported by, the great sward.

I personally have little physical experience with its usage, I am totaly unsuited for the weapon at such a small size (5'4 @ 140lbs) but I have studied the principles of Medieval combined arms armies in depth. I would agree to learn your longsword forms with a greatsword waster, blunt, etc in conjucture with a typical longsword and pay close attention to how the weapons differ and that should let you make informed descisions on how best the gret sword should be handled.

Best of luck to you man. BTW, what school do you go to?

[Casper Bradak]

By the way, Master Di Grassi has some good bits of info on the two handers use as a strategic weapon.

[Neil Bockus]

Thank you for your insight to my current setbacks. I will continue to work vigilantly towards understanding this weapon.

As to my school, I go to Syracuse University as a religion major, though i may decide to become a religion/history dual major.

[Jake_Norwood]

The German "longsword" is a very large weapon in many manuals. Not a "true two hander" as in Marozzo, but nonetheless many of them (ie Goliath, Meyer, etc) are clearly not "hand and a half." We call them great swords around here. The dimensions are, at a glance, similiar to that of the famed claymore. Sort of.

Jake

[Justin Blackford]

From my own experience, I purchased a two-hander that was just right for me proportionally. I'm 5'9" and 170lbs. with a lean, athletic build, so I had shop around a bit until I found one more idea for me. My two-hander is a replica of a 15th century Scotch Claymore, and it has the parrying hooks unlike it's earlier period antecendant. It stands at 56" tall and weighs around 4.75 lbs. My friend with whom I vigorously train purchased a replica Swiss two-hander modeled after one from a Landesknechte portrait. It's about 5'4" and weights around 6 lbs. It's more ideal for him, because he is signifigantly taller.
Anyway, he studied the replicas and cleverly crafted padded waster two-handers that maintained the same weight and balance, and we just decided to try what we knew from our longsword training and see what other techniques naturally evolved, since we found almost no clear info on the two-hander in historical treatises available publicly.
It does wield like the longsword/greatsword, but it seems to be used much simpler and more powerfully in it's action. With the longer blade and handle, it makes short work of halberds and other polearms. The extra reach makes the legs an easier target to hit, since with the longsword, the legs rarely present themselves to be struck in safety without getting nailed with a Schaittelhau.
So, I recommend what I have done, taking safe waster forms that are properly weighted and balanced and just learning through freeplay which techniques feel the most natural and seem to work the most efficiently.

Justin

[Jake_Norwood]

does wield like the longsword/greatsword, but it seems to be used much simpler and more powerfully in it's action.

Not to derail, but what do you mean?

Jake

[SzabolcsWaldmann]

Let me throw my two cents on this,

If the Longsword is the queen of all swords for its versatility and beauty, then the renaissance twohander is a true king among weapons. Not only for it's sheer power, no! To understand the finesses of twohander swordsplay, you truly have to know the Longsword, but you also have to use your own weight in the wielding. If you try to use a twohander like a katana, moving it's weightpoint around you, you gonna get yourself defeated. Instead, you have to try and wield the sword around it's own weightpoint. That needs practice, and speed! And if you need to swing the sword, you will want to use your whole body in the process.
Sure, the twohander is a relativelly slow sword in comparison to almost any other, but speed itself is not so relevant, if you understand two basic principles:

- Always move. Be never in one place. Always move your weightpoint out of the range of the enemy's weapon, for then you will have superior reach (imagine this: You are standing Vom Tach with a twohander, left foot forward. you got an enemy with a, say, longsword. He stabs / cuts at you; you move your left foot to the back, thus, get outside his inner circle, his reach, and do a scheitelhau ---> or simply a fendente. He will get crushed by the sheer power, but cannot reach you). If you are using it against polearms, stepping in is always a good idea, and, using the second, smaller crossbar above the ricasso ("parierhaken"), you can lock the weapon in an upwards stab. The two crossbars will ensure that the pole weapons head is kept out of the way. (with one crossbar, the head of a swiss halberd for example would hurt your hands while locking) . Simply letting the weapon fall while stepping in - thus, doing a scheitelhau or zornhau would cut your enemy in half. These were only two examples but by using your movement you can outbalance the relative slowness of the twohander.

- Speed itself is not what truly matters in swordsplay. A won fight means simply put a sharp, pointy iron in the right place, in the right time. You have to focus on that. Your twohander can be as slow as it gets, but by understanding geometrics, times and measures in swordsplay, you have to train and aim for clean, professional cuts, which will most certainly always come together with body movement. If it does not, your upper body will twist back and forth in a most unpleasant way (your body tries to outbalance the weight), and becouse of your quitness, you will get stabbed the first time you miss and your weapon passes the opponent. THUS, in a proper twohander swordsplay you should never do an attack, without ensuring your own protection from your enemy and that must be done to outbalance the relative slowness of the recovery. You will most certainly use lots of Mastercuts.

Last but not least, with your right hand gripping the ricasso and your left hand gripping the blade (thus, mezzo spada á lá bidenhänder) you will experience something interesting - the weightpoint will be inside your right palm, and the twohander will act like a scale, which will be quite fast for thrusting at armoured opponents. On the other side, your bigger crossbar will act like a warhammer. That is why a twohander is good against mezzo spada (okay, its not exactly meant to always be used that way), against pole weapons and even smaller swords.


So this was my research. Any comments on this?


Byez,

Szab

[Justin Blackford]

What I mean by simpler is that, although the twohander does allow many of the longsword's ringen am schwert and schwert nehmen. I (from testing it through freeplay) never really saw the chance to use those particular techniques. I used a lot of meisterhau and half-sword cuts and thrusts, but for the most part, my actions mostly involved lots of hanging parries and diagonal oberhaus aimed for my opponent's lower openings. I know that in true swordplay, movements must be kept simple and direct if you want to survive, but I still would've done some wrestling and disarms had the opportunity provided it rather than just using the more pedestrian oberhau.
This also might stem from my opponent. He's HUGE and hits like a ton of bricks. He certainly grasps the benefit of the Vor , but one would think that someone who wields a 6 pound twohander would tire quickly after launching so many heavy blows. Not this guy. So maybe my movements are just kept simpler because I am defending myself against a more vicious opponent.

Justin

[Jake_Norwood]

It sounds like the fighter, not the weapon, is simpler here. Not that a simple fighter isn't effective--to the contrary!

If you're smaller than him, you won't want to start too much Ringen am schwert...especially anything more than an elbow push.

As for the hengen-oberhau combo...I think I pretty much did my whole prize playing like that. I can attest to the effectiveness of that.

Respond by thrusting more, and focusing on the wind.

Jake

[Justin Blackford]

Yeah, that sounds right.

During one bout a few weeks ago, I remember that I defeated him several times by using the twohander more like a polearm using more halfsword and winding actions. I would absetzen his oberhaus and mittelhaus and perform more of a duplieren action and that would usually catch him off guard. He doesn't seem to quite comprehend how to defend against actions like winden , duplieren , and mutieren , and that's where I can beat him.
He and most of the others in my study group are usually terrified of me when I perform grappling and disarming moves because I can do them quite easily with daggers, longswords, and smallswords. And when both of us are unarmed, nobody want to tangle with my grappling. That would probably be why he insists on delivering a wide range of heavy blows, to keep me at a distance and constantly on the defense so I can't close in.
But, that hanging parry/oberhau combination is still a pain to go up against because he can hit with such power that it damn near takes the wind right out of my sails. I've got to come up with a way to feign some kind of attack that would get him going in one direction so I can hit in another before he takes the Vor with his heavy blows. What kind of fehler would work against a twohander?

Justin

[Jake_Norwood]

Thrust. Strike low. Use the wechselhau and especially those strikes designed to defeat the guard he's lying in. Also the Zwerch and the Schiller. Wind with him. It works. It defeats the buffalo.

What guard does he usually lie in? When I fight like that, I hang out in either iron door or pflug.

Jake

[Justin Blackford]

Yeah, low thrusts how definently worked against the larger opponent. I can never find a chance to use the wechselhau, though. Zwerch works, although not quick enough to stifle his attack completly, so it usually leads to winden or mutieren.
I have a really hard time using the Schiller with the larger and heavier claymore when compared to my bastard-sword. Can't seem to come over and down fast enough.
He usually decides to "invent" his own guards. He basically likes to lie in a type of Schranck that is higher to the face or else in the Einhorn guard. I told him to do his homework and read what Hanko Doebringer has to say about playfighters who "invent" their own strikes and guards that are clearly derived from the Liechtenaur system.

[Jake_Norwood]

I can never find a chance to use the wechselhau, though.

Describe what you think the Wechselhau is, and I'll tell you what I think it is (at least according to Meyer), and we'll see what we can do. It's a vorschlag, after all.

I have a really hard time using the Schiller with the larger and heavier claymore when compared to my bastard-sword.

That's probably because we're talking about different strikes. I've got a video of what I *believe* is definitive schiller, fulfilling all the requirements and only requiring a slight change from what most of us have been doing. It's lightining fast, too. Remember, I'm a looong-sword guy. A greatsword guy. And it's fast. (Right, Stew?). We'll get you squared away.

Zwerch works, although not quick enough to stifle his attack completly, so it usually leads to winden or mutieren.

Yes, but this is why the zwerch works. The bind is one of the strengths of the zwerch. In fact, the whole "gist" of the german "system" is that every attack needs to have a number of "outs," indes. Those are (1) a successful strike, (2) a bind followed by a thrust when he's soft at the sword, (3) a displacement or twitch (zucken) when he's hard at the bind (this includes grappling). Dobringer calls the zwerch the queen of all strikes, and I think this is why. It does these things better than any other, although I believe that EVERY strike in the german "system" requires this kind of pre-planning or thinking ahead.

Meyer (like Musashi), says that single combat and mass combat are the same, both for the fighter on the ground and for the General leading the battle. It's the Chess-like thinking ahead 2 or 3 moves that largely defines this.

I told him to do his homework and read what Hanko Doebringer has to say about playfighters who "invent" their own strikes and guards that are clearly derived from the Liechtenaur system.

But remember, he's not likely to believe you unless you can show him in the fight that what he's doing doesn't work...and it sounds like you're struggling there.

As for how to beat that...are his arms crossed or open? If it's ochs-like (which Einhorn is), try attacking to the elbows with an exended krump, and be prepared for actions at the bind.

Jake